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Torah and Jewish Idea => Torah and Jewish Idea => Topic started by: White Israelite on February 01, 2010, 03:46:30 am
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I've been reading rabbi interpretation of halacha and from my understanding, it's forbidden to draw an image of a man or anything that would represent Hashem or the stars, moon, sun. This article goes as far as to claim that one should deface a statue, trophy, or a doll with human features.
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache%3AQxZiLXoMHacJ%3Awww.thehalacha.com%2Fattach%2FVolume3%2FIssue8.pdf+Shulchan+Aruch%2C+Y.D.%2C+141%2C+4&hl=en&gl=us&sig=AHIEtbRzEki02yhTpDM9CCsG-QvyCeSXjQ&pli=1
Is this true? I am looking to get into art myself and do some sketches myself and would not want to engage in forbidden activity. I have seen some Jewish art that focuses on drawing people and while finding such artwork is rare (when I think of Jewish art, I don't think of focusing on a person as the picture), what I have seen is very well done and I am curious if this is a violation of halacha?
I've noticed such images of the Israelites is rare if not impossible to find and the only artwork that can be found is from Egyptians portrayal and some Assyrian drawings. There is also a picture of the Habiru in Egyptian hieroglyphics which some scholars claim are infact the Hebrews but that has not been proven yet.
There are some crude drawings of lions and some other animals but I would assume that a lot of the artwork is rare from those days because of the occupation from various empires throughout the course of history. It's hard enough finding documents and I'm sure finding art is going to be even more difficult.
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Yes, it is true that the commandment concerning images includes the command not to make images of man....
Look at the second of the ten commandments:
Shemot/Exodus 20
3 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
4 thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the LORD thy G-d am a jealous G-d, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me;
Apparently the command is that we should not make graven images of anything which Hashem has created {likeness of any thing that is in heaven above or on earth or in the water}....
I do not have any pictures in my house of anything other than landscapes {though technically this too is forbidded by a strict interpretation of this commandment}....
http://www.modia.org/infos/etudes/artjudaism.html
According to this article some art is permissable... I have not read this entire link but it may answer some of your questions...
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So does that mean little Jewish girls are not allowed to own dolls? In a Judaica store near where I live, they have a bride doll in the window.
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So does that mean little Jewish girls are not allowed to own dolls? In a Judaica store near where I live, they have a bride doll in the window.
Taking the commandment 100% literally it would forbid this... But there must be some opinions which allow it. I have been trying to find a website which spells out the halacha completely...
Apparently 'graven images' means an image which is created for worshipping... I don't know if dolls of today are created for this purpose...
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Apparently 'graven images' means an image which is created for worshipping... I don't know if dolls of today are created for this purpose...
I have always wondered about this and why Jews and Christians have a different interpretation of this commandment (we have never read it to prohibit images, just those that are meant as idols). Does the Oral Torah or Mishnahs go into more detail about what "graven" means?
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So does that mean little Jewish girls are not allowed to own dolls? In a Judaica store near where I live, they have a bride doll in the window.
You can still play with 'My Little Pony' if you want...
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?????
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?????
Ponies are not human?
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?????
Ponies are not human?
Bio, but the second commandment says not to make anything living, anything on earth and under the water....
I think that this interpretation is the 'strict' interpretation and I have seen more liberal interpretations even from Orthodox sources...
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http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/Eng/default.aspx?srch=1&cat=&search_in=2&q=images
Question:
Could you offer me some explanation on what the Torah translates as "Graven Images". I don’t know Hebrew. What is the Hebrew word for ’graven.’
Answer:
The hebrew word usually translated as "Graven Images" is "Pesel" (Exodus 20;3, Dueteronomy 5;7) which literaly means sculptored image, and is apparently refering to images constructed for the purposes of worship. There are other words refering to idolatry such as "Temunah" which literally means picture or likeness, and "Pesel Masecha" which means molten idol (like the golden calf).
http://www.yeshiva.org.il/midrash/Shiur.asp?id=7566
Grave Issues about Graven Images
Rabbi Yirmiyohu Kaganoff
Written by the rabbi
Dedicated to the memory of
R' Meir b"r Yechezkel Shraga Brachfeld zt"l
Miriam recently asked me these two questions regarding avodah zarah:
1) I received some figurines from a museum shop which resemble various Egyptian gods. May I keep them to demonstrate at the Seder what silly gods the Egyptians worshipped?
2) My non-observant, but very respectful, father has a rather eclectic collection of various art objects -- including a four-foot-tall bronze statue of some Hindu figure. Do I have any obligation to say or do anything?
Zev, a chess enthusiast, asked me the following:
"I just received a present of a very nicely carved chess set. Unfortunately the king has a cross. May I keep the set as is, or must I break off the cross on the king?"
Each of these shaylos revolves upon the question of whether a Jew may own an item that has idolatrous overtones even though he has no idolatrous intention. Is this lack of intent sufficient to avoid any Torah violations?
As we will see, there are several potential shaylos that we must analyze to determine the halacha:
I. May a Jew look at an icon?
II. Does it make a difference whether it is worshipped?
III. May a Jew own an icon that represents an idol, even if it was never worshipped?
IV. If owning this icon infringes on no other prohibitions, does it violate maris ayin, doing something that looks suspicious?
In Parshas Eikev, the Torah commands: "Burn their carved gods in fire. Do not desire and obtain the silver or gold that is upon them, lest you become snared by it, for it is hideous to Hashem your G-d. Nor shall you bring this repugnancy into your house; rather, you should ban it. Abhor it and revile it for it is banned" (Devorim 7:25-26).
This pasuk includes the following mitzvos:
1. Burn their carved gods in fire commands us to destroy avodah zarah (Rambam, Hilchos Avodah Zarah 7:1). This mitzvah is also mentioned in Devorim 12:2.
2. Do not desire and obtain the silver or gold that is upon them prohibits benefit even from the decorations on an idol (Chinuch, Mitzvah 428). One may not own or sell idols even if one thinks that they are the silliest things on earth, since he gains financially or in other ways.
3. Nor shall you bring this repugnancy into your house bans bringing an idol into your house and also forbids benefiting from idolatry (Rambam, Hilchos Avodah Zarah 7:2).
4. Furthermore, the Torah states al tifnu el elilim, do not turn to idols (VaYikra 19:4). What is included in this proscription? Does it include looking at idols or images that represent idols?
The Sifra (VaYikra 19:4) quotes two interpretations of this verse, one that prohibits studying idolatry, including its beliefs and how the idol is worshipped. A second approach understands the verse to forbid even looking at idols (Yerushalmi, Avodah Zarah 3:1). The poskim rule that both approaches are accepted halacha, the Torah thus prohibits studying idolatrous practices and beliefs as well as looking at icons (Rambam, Hilchos Avodah Zarah 2:2; Sefer HaMitzvos, Lo Saaseh #10; Chinuch #213). The Rambam (Sefer HaMitzvos, Lo Saaseh #10) states that one receives malkus for violating this prohibition. Therefore, someone who violates either interpretation of this mitzvah is halachically invalid to provide testimony even if he has no idolatrous intent.
DOES THAT MEAN THAT EVEN GLANCING AT AN IDOL IS A TORAH VIOLATION?
The Magen Avraham (307:23) explains that the Torah prohibits only gazing at an idol, but does not prohibit glancing at it. Therefore, seeing it is not prohibited, but intentionally looking at it is.
THE ICON OR ONLY THE IDOL?
May one look at articles that only represent the actual idol even though they are not themselves worshipped, or is the prohibition limited to idols that are worshipped? The answer to this question depends on how one understands the following passage of Gemara:
"One may not read the caption underneath a painting or image on Shabbos. [This is included in the violation of reading documents on Shabbos.] Furthermore, one may not look at the image itself even on weekdays because one thereby violates ‘Do not turn to idols.’ How do we derive this law from this verse? Rav Chanin explained, ‘do not turn to works created by man’s own initiative’" (Shabbos 149a).
This passage implies that one may not look at any image, even one not worshipped, because looking at any image is already considered a form of idolatrous practice.
On the other hand, elsewhere the Gemara (Avodah Zarah 50a) praises the Talmudic scholar Rabbi Menachem ben Sima’ie as a holy man because he never looked at the images that one finds on coins. This implies that an especially holy person does not look at figures, but a person who observes halacha without chumros may do so. Thus, we are faced with a seeming inconsistency: one Gemara statement prohibits looking at any image, the other implies that one may (although it is meritorious to avoid).
The Rishonim suggest several different approaches to resolve this quandary:
1. First opinion: Some contend that the prohibition of looking at an image applies only to what was actually worshipped, and a coin’s image is not worshipped. According to this opinion, although the Gemara seems to derive that one may not look at any painting or image whatsoever, it really means to limit the prohibition to actual worshipped idols. Nevertheless, it is praiseworthy not to look at any pictures or images at all.
(Tosafos, Shabbos).
2. Second opinion: The Rosh expands the previous approach moderately, prohibiting looking at an image meant for worship, even if the image has not been worshipped. In his opinion, the Gemara prohibits looking at any painting or image that was made for idolatrous purposes, even if it was never worshipped.
3. Third opinion: A third approach understands the Gemara literally -- that it prohibits looking at any image whatsoever (Rashi; Tosafos Rid). If this approach is correct, why does the Gemara in Avodah Zarah imply that Rabbi Menachem ben Sima’ie’s acts are meritorious but not required, when the Gemara in Shabbos prevented looking at any image?
To answer this question, some explain that although it is prohibited to look at any image, this is so only when someone may be led astray from the Torah by the image. Since coins are in common use all the time, they do not tempt us to violate the Torah (Tosafos, Avodah Zarah 50a).
EGYPTIAN FIGURINES
Whether one may own a replica of an ancient Egyptian icon depends on the above-quoted dispute among the Rishonim. According to the first opinion quoted above, since these icons were meant for educational purposes rather than to encourage worship, it is technically permitted to look at them (although it is meritorious to refrain). On the other hand, according to the other opinions, even looking at these pieces violates the Torah’s mitzvah since they are not common and therefore attract attention, all the more so that owning one is problematic.
How does the Shulchan Aruch adjudicate this question?
Surprising as it may seem, two statements of Shulchan Aruch appear to contradict one another. In Orach Chayim (307:16) he cites the above-mentioned Gemara in Shabbos in a way that implies that he prohibits looking as any image at all. On the other hand, in his laws on idolatry, he limits the prohibition to looking at bona fide worshipped idols. It is also noteworthy that there he cites a different reason to prohibit looking at idols, because enjoying the artwork is considered benefiting from idolatry (Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 142:15, quoting Rabbeinu Yerucham).
However, the major commentators on the Shulchan Aruch in both places note that the accepted practice is to prohibit only icons manufactured for worship (Shach; Magen Avraham). Therefore, as far as the prohibition of looking at icons is concerned, Miriam may save her figurines for the Seder, although it is more meritorious not to. Thus, the better choice of action is to dispose of the figurines rather than saving them for educational purposes.
I will discuss shortly another possible prohibition involved, that of maris ayin.
COLLECTING ICON STAMPS
A stamp dealer-collector asked Rav Moshe Feinstein whether he could own, buy and sell stamps that contain crosses and other idolatrous images. Rav Moshe ruled that since stamps are a common item, like coins, one may own or sell their images, and may also look at them. Rav Moshe mentions that it is meritorious not to, presumably for the same reason that Rabbi Menachem of the Gemara avoided looking at coins (Igros Moshe, Yoreh Deah 1:69).
ZEV’S CHESS SET
According to the reasons we have applied so far, Zev may be able to keep his fancy carved chess set. No one worships the cross on the king, and one could perhaps argue that this is familiar enough that no one is led astray by these pieces. As mentioned above, it is meritorious not to have any images at all, and this is certainly a good reason why the custom is to break off the cross of such chess pieces.
However, Miriam’s Dad’s Hindu statue involves a more serious halacha problem. Firstly, if this image was manufactured for worship all opinions prohibit looking at this idol and enjoying it. Furthermore if it was once worshipped, then several other Torah violations are involved, including that of having an avodah zarah in one’s house and benefiting from avodah zarah (because he enjoys looking at the artwork). In addition, there is a mitzvah to destroy it.
SHOULD WE ASSUME THAT THIS STATUE WAS WORSHIPPED?
Are we required to assume that the Hindu statue was worshipped? After all, it looks as if it was created as a collector’s item, not for worship.
The answer is that if this statue was manufactured in a place where images of this nature are worshipped, he must assume that this icon is a bona fide idol (Rama, Yoreh Deah 141:3 and Shach ad loc. 17).
IS IT MARIS AYIN?
In addition to the halachic problem of looking at these idols, the Gemara (Avodah Zarah 43b) raises a concern that someone might suspect that the owner worships them.
Are we today still concerned that someone might worship idols?
The answer to this question goes back to understanding the basics of maris ayin. Doesn’t the concept of maris ayin conflict with the mitzvah of judging people favorably? If everyone always judged others favorably, there would never be a reason for maris ayin. Yet we see that the Torah is concerned that someone might judge unfavorably and suspect a Torah Jew for violating a mitzvah.
Indeed, although we are required to judge favorably, we are also not permitted to do something that others may misinterpret as violating halacha. Therefore a person’s actions must be above suspicion, while people watching him act in a suspicious way are required to judge him favorably. In other words, a person should not rely on his sterling reputation to do something that might be misinterpreted.
However, if circumstances dictate that people will assume that nothing wrong was done, there is no violation of maris ayin. Indeed, even in cases where there was maris ayin at the time of the Gemara, the prohibition is rescinded in places and times when the concern no longer exists.
Concerning maris ayin and the prohibition of avodah zarah, the poskim conclude that if no one worships these icons anymore anywhere in the world, one need not be concerned of suspicion that they are worshipped (see Rama, Shach, and Gra, Yoreh Deah 141:3). However, as long as these idols are worshipped somewhere, one must be concerned about maris ayin.
Thus, it makes a difference whether this particular idol is still worshipped somewhere in the world. Since, unfortunately, there are still Hindus in the world, one may not own an idol that they might worship because of the prohibition of maris ayin, even if no other prohibition to its ownership exists. On the other hand, since no one worships the ancient Egyptian idols any more, it is not maris ayin to own these figurines.
TEACHING ANCIENT RELIGIONS
I mentioned above that the Sifra rules that studying idolatry, including what the religion believes and how the idol is worshipped, is prohibited min hatorah as part of the mitzvah of al tifnu el elilim, do not turn to idols.
Does this include studying ancient religions or archeology? Does this prohibit reading mythology as a form of literature?
In Nisan 5740 (1960), Rav Yehudah Parnas, a prominent Rosh Yeshivah, asked Rav Moshe Feinstein regarding an observant public school teacher whose required ancient history curriculum included teaching the beliefs of ancient Greece and Rome. Rav Parnes inquired whether the fact that the entire world now views these religions with disrespect validates studying and teaching their beliefs. Do we therefore permit teaching these religions since one is mocking them, or is this teaching and studying still prohibited?
Rav Moshe rules that the prohibition to study idolatry exists regardless of why one studies the religion. This also prohibits reading mythology that includes idolatry even as a study of ancient literature.
However, Rav Moshe contends that the Torah prohibits studying only what is authored by a proponent of the religion. One may study something written by someone who scoffed at the religion, just as we see that even the Torah sometimes describes the way idolaters worshipped in order to ridicule the practice. Therefore Rav Moshe rules that one may only study these matters if the teacher derides their beliefs and does not have the students read texts written by believers in the idols.
Rav Moshe point out that the students may even benefit from this instruction if they realize that, although most of the world’s population once accepted these ridiculous beliefs, this does not demonstrate that these beliefs are true. Similarly, the fact that millions of people accept certain other false notions as true is not evidence to their veracity (Igros Moshe, Yoreh Deah 2:53).
In conclusion to our original questions, Miriam may save the Egyptian figurines although it is praiseworthy to dispose them, but her father may not hold onto his Hindu statue even as art or to mock it. Zev may keep his chess set.
Our belief in Hashem is the most basic of mitzvos. Praiseworthy is he who stays far from idols and their modern substitutes and directs his heart to Hashem.
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http://www.oztorah.com/2009/10/inartistic-synagogues-ask-the-rabbi/
Q. Why is there more decorative art in churches than in synagogues?
A. There are a number of popular theories, e.g. that the strict observance of the Second Commandment with its ban on graven images prevented synagogues from indulging in art, and that Jewish communities were uprooted so often that they preferred makeshift synagogues that served a practical purpose and had little artistic embellishment. Both theories are not entirely correct, since there is evidence of art in ancient synagogues (a number of synagogal mosaics, for example, have been unearthed in Israel); and in the Middle Ages and later, many synagogues were impressive and solid edifices.
There is another factor which played an important role: the attitude to the Bible. In Judaism, the words and message of the Bible were an art form in themselves, and embellishing the synagogue or house of study with artistic creations was hardly necessary. Further, in Judaism everyone could read and the Bible was the inheritance of the people, whilst in Christianity the scriptures were the preserve of the priests and the people were largely illiterate. What ordinary worshippers knew of the Bible was read from the pictures, statues and icons which surrounded them in their churches and cathedrals.
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I've been reading rabbi interpretation of halacha and from my understanding, it's forbidden to draw an image of a man or anything that would represent Hashem or the stars, moon, sun. This article goes as far as to claim that one should deface a statue, trophy, or a doll with human features.
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache%3AQxZiLXoMHacJ%3Awww.thehalacha.com%2Fattach%2FVolume3%2FIssue8.pdf+Shulchan+Aruch%2C+Y.D.%2C+141%2C+4&hl=en&gl=us&sig=AHIEtbRzEki02yhTpDM9CCsG-QvyCeSXjQ&pli=1
Is this true? I am looking to get into art myself and do some sketches myself and would not want to engage in forbidden activity. I have seen some Jewish art that focuses on drawing people and while finding such artwork is rare (when I think of Jewish art, I don't think of focusing on a person as the picture), what I have seen is very well done and I am curious if this is a violation of halacha?
I've noticed such images of the Israelites is rare if not impossible to find and the only artwork that can be found is from Egyptians portrayal and some Assyrian drawings. There is also a picture of the Habiru in Egyptian hieroglyphics which some scholars claim are infact the Hebrews but that has not been proven yet.
There are some crude drawings of lions and some other animals but I would assume that a lot of the artwork is rare from those days because of the occupation from various empires throughout the course of history. It's hard enough finding documents and I'm sure finding art is going to be even more difficult.
Hmm good question although I think there is a difference between drawing a picture and making an actual figurine out of it. I know the figurine type thing is forbidden. That's usually what graven images refers to - a carving or statue. I remember something related to this came up last year but can't remember what my rosh yeshiva had said about it.
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Is the statue of David forbidden then? Am I violating halacha by sketching people or drawing life like pictures of people?
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Is the statue of David forbidden then? Am I violating halacha by sketching people or drawing life like pictures of people?
As I have stated here it is up to the Rabbi to determine the halacha for you. I don't see a clear cut answer from what I have looked into. I usually take the strict interpretation and pretty much avoid all images in my house... I have no statues, no pictures of humans or animals, only wildlife...
But apparently, as always, there are questions about how strict some aspects of the second commandment run. If you want to do it the truly Orthodox Jewish way, you should find an Orthodox Rabbi you trust and ask him this question. If he knows you, and knows his halacha, he can advise you on the proper way to enjoy art without violating halacha.
PS: Personally I believe Michelangelo was violating the halacha... He drew an image of G-d, made statues of naked Jewish kings {David}.... I don't know what was wrong with Michelangelo...
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I have a tiny little buddha statue someone gave me. Its like a inch tall. I know Buddha is not worshiped, or considered a god, but surely he is a "molten" creation. I have a wonderful friend who is a Buddhist, may I give her this item freely? I might as well get rid of this tile I have that looks like the sun with a face on it... someone gave it to me because I work in tile sometimes. - I never really liked it, so it also may be happy in my friend's home. I kinda feel good because she is my old room mate, and I think that my Judaism influenced her to go to Church w/ her Mom, and to delve into Buddhism on her own spiritual path.
Houseplants are kosher, yes? Best replacement for iconographic contraband!
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I have a tiny little buddha statue someone gave me. Its like a inch tall. I know Buddha is not worshiped, or considered a G-d, but surely he is a "molten" creation. I have a wonderful friend who is a Buddhist, may I give her this item freely? I might as well get rid of this tile I have that looks like the sun with a face on it... someone gave it to me because I work in tile sometimes. - I never really liked it, so it also may be happy in my friend's home. I kinda feel good because she is my old room mate, and I think that my Judaism influenced her to go to Church w/ her Mom, and to delve into Buddhism on her own spiritual path.
Houseplants are kosher, yes? Best replacement for iconographic contraband!
Yes houseplants are Kosher but if you want to be completely shomer Shabbat you should understand the rules about watering plants on Shabbat.
Here are the 39 prohibited forms of labor on Shabbat:
http://www.ou.org/chagim/shabbat/thirtynine.htm
14. Plowing (Note 31)
This includes any work that improves the ground.
Digging up a garden and fertilizing it fall under this heading. Also included is raking a lawn.
15. Planting (Note 32)
This includes all forms of planting and gardening.
Also included is anything that encourages plants to grow. Thus, one may not water plants on the Sabbath.
It is likewise forbidden to place cut flowers in water, or even to change their water.
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Is the statue of David forbidden then? Am I violating halacha by sketching people or drawing life like pictures of people?
These are good questions, and while Muman's references from sites summarizing the general issues are useful, there is nothing like a direct teacher-to-student mesorah to ask a specific halachic shailah to a qualified Rav with a breadth of knowledge in Talmud, for his psak halacha on your specific question, so bli neder I will bring up this issue and ask the questions to my rabbi tomorrow, as you have written them. He is a very understanding person with vast knowledge whom I trust, and I must say these are few and far between.
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Is the statue of David forbidden then? Am I violating halacha by sketching people or drawing life like pictures of people?
These are good questions, and while Muman's references from sites summarizing the general issues are useful, there is nothing like a direct teacher-to-student mesorah to ask a specific halachic shailah to a qualified Rav for his psak halacha on your specific question, so bli neder I will bring up this issue and ask the question to my rabbi tomorrow, as you wrote it.
Of course... I should caution more often that what I provide is simply what Rabbis have said and written and do not constitute a halachic decision... Only a real Rabbi is able to decide these issues.
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Please forgive me for I will need another day to post a reply. Thank you.
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I've been reading rabbi interpretation of halacha and from my understanding, it's forbidden to draw an image of a man or anything that would represent Hashem or the stars, moon, sun. This article goes as far as to claim that one should deface a statue, trophy, or a doll with human features.
Is this true? I am looking to get into art myself and do some sketches myself and would not want to engage in forbidden activity. I have seen some Jewish art that focuses on drawing people and while finding such artwork is rare (when I think of Jewish art, I don't think of focusing on a person as the picture), what I have seen is very well done and I am curious if this is a violation of halacha?
I showed this to my rabbi and he explained to me his ruling on this matter. You can draw a picture of a person since it's 2 dimensional. The only things you can't draw are a picture of the sun, stars, and moon, where some opinions hold that even with these it is forbidden to depict in 2 dimension. But pictures/drawings of humans and other objects/things in 2 dimension are definitely permitted.
A statue of a human being, a full statue, which you own - That is a case where you have to deface it - meaning knock off a piece, or make it incomplete in some way. The real issur (prohibition) regarding the statue is to MAKE such a statue. To own it and have on your possession is an issue of maris ayin (suspicion) - ie halachically speaking, people might suspect that you made it since you own it. So to avoid such a suspicion, one would have to break a piece off to make sure it's not a complete statue - this will reflect the fact that you did not make it. So in the first place, you shouldn't buy such a statue, but if you already own one, then you should do some small action to it which takes away the suspicion that you made it - makes it incomplete.
But as far as painting and artwork, you can paint and do art and depict anything except for the sun, moon, and stars.
(Under very specific circumstances my rabbi did say that there could be room to be lenient - bsha'at hadechak (in a very difficult situation) - even about the sun, moon, and stars, but that is not your situation, White Israelite. And since you are just getting into art now, (a "lechathila" 'before-the-fact' situation) you should avoid depicting the sun, moon, and stars in your artwork).
Is the statue of David forbidden then? Am I violating halacha by sketching people or drawing life like pictures of people?
If it's a full statue and you made it, it's forbidden - a very strong issur (from the 10 commandments). To have it in your house is forbidden on a different level - due to maris ayin - and in that case if you already have one, you should do something to it to make it incomplete/defaced (as discussed above).
There is no violation to sketch people or drawing life like pictures of people in 2D.
My rabbi said, even a doll does not violate the (3D) statue prohibition because it does not duplicate what a person looks like. If it's not an exact replica of a person with human features, there is leniency there.
And on what 3D human statues are prohibited to make, the issur (prohibition) is in an entire thing according to some opinions, so accordingly an incomplete statue can be made by those of the opinion that the real prohibition "m'ikkar hadin" (in the essence of the law) is to make the full thing. But some hold that making an incomplete human statue would also be forbidden.
With regards to a picture, it is for sure mutar (permitted), with the exception of sun moon and stars. The issur (prohibition) otherwise involves 3-dimensional things.
So in sum, do not make statues of people, avoid having complete statues of people in your possession, and don't draw the sun, moon, and stars, and you're clear sailing.
Hatzlacha (have success) with the artwork.
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Religion should be logical. If something is forbidden, there should be a reason for it.
So why would the depiction of living things be forbidden?
Humans will start to see a statue of a person, or a teddy bear for instance, as living objects and might even talk to it or consider it alive; when it is not.
This is quite insane when you think about it, and
also unhealthy, because you give attention, which in itself is life or even give love, to a useless piece of material.
You only should give attention and love to actual living things, otherwise it is a waste or even idolatry.
Awareness is a precious thing. Don't waste it.
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Religion should be logical. If something is forbidden, there should be a reason for it.
What are you talking about? Of course there are reasons that forbidden things are forbidden, and of course the oral law operates logically (and on mesorah - tradition). White Israelite asked to know what is forbidden and what is permitted. So I summarized that for him. He was not asking why. But certainly there is scriptural basis, you should have no doubt about that, and God has His reasons for the mitzvot which we can not ever know for sure but can contemplate and speculate and find meaning in them.
"So why would the depiction of living things be forbidden?
Humans will start to see a statue of a person, or a teddy bear for instance, as living objects and might even talk to it or consider it alive; when it is not.
This is quite insane when you think about it, and"
Did you read my post at all? "Depiction of living things" is NOT forbidden. Not in 2D, and in 3D only a HUMAN depiction is forbidden. If you call Sun, moon, and stars "living things" then these are the only things forbidden in 2D drawings.
A Teddy Bear is not forbidden. Making one or owning one. It's not human.
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Religion should be logical. If something is forbidden, there should be a reason for it.
What are you talking about? Of course there are reasons that forbidden things are forbidden, and of course the oral law operates logically (and on mesorah - tradition). White Israelite asked to know what is forbidden and what is permitted. So I summarized that for him. He was not asking why. But certainly there is scriptural basis, you should have no doubt about that, and G-d has His reasons for the mitzvot which we can not ever know for sure but can contemplate and speculate and find meaning in them.
"So why would the depiction of living things be forbidden?
Humans will start to see a statue of a person, or a teddy bear for instance, as living objects and might even talk to it or consider it alive; when it is not.
This is quite insane when you think about it, and"
Did you read my post at all? "Depiction of living things" is NOT forbidden. Not in 2D, and in 3D only a HUMAN depiction is forbidden. If you call Sun, moon, and stars "living things" then these are the only things forbidden in 2D drawings.
A Teddy Bear is not forbidden. Making one or owning one. It's not human.
Yes I read your post. I just choose to nót see you as all knowing.
I just give a logical explanation and that seems to bother you.
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Religion should be logical. If something is forbidden, there should be a reason for it.
What are you talking about? Of course there are reasons that forbidden things are forbidden, and of course the oral law operates logically (and on mesorah - tradition). White Israelite asked to know what is forbidden and what is permitted. So I summarized that for him. He was not asking why. But certainly there is scriptural basis, you should have no doubt about that, and G-d has His reasons for the mitzvot which we can not ever know for sure but can contemplate and speculate and find meaning in them.
"So why would the depiction of living things be forbidden?
Humans will start to see a statue of a person, or a teddy bear for instance, as living objects and might even talk to it or consider it alive; when it is not.
This is quite insane when you think about it, and"
Did you read my post at all? "Depiction of living things" is NOT forbidden. Not in 2D, and in 3D only a HUMAN depiction is forbidden. If you call Sun, moon, and stars "living things" then these are the only things forbidden in 2D drawings.
A Teddy Bear is not forbidden. Making one or owning one. It's not human.
Yes I read your post. I just choose to nót see you as all knowing.
I just give a logical explanation and that seems to bother you.
I am astounded at how pathetically insecure you sound. I am not "all knowing." The JEWISH LAW, operates on 'halacha' which is only arrived at through Talmudic study - a vast corpus of Oral tradition which expounds upon the Torah and is the only binding explanation of law with a tradition of interpretation stemming all the way back to Moshe and the first Jews that were. I did not even say that it was my own ideas I was giving over. My rabbi, who has studied the Talmud in depth and all the of the sources, has arrived at the halacha on this issue and gave a psak din (a ruling) for White Israelite who asked a halachic question. Jewish law does not operate on "making stuff up" - which is what you did here. You make a mockery of Judaism with your ignorant comments, and that has no place here.
Your invented speculation not only says nothing about what the Jewish law is or is not, and has no relevance since you do not claim to put any textual backing behind it or to have any source in Jewish sources, but it also was Wrong... Incorrect... According to Jewish law. You may not understand how Judaism operates, and I don't expect you to, but White Israelite's question was for a trained, qualified rabbi who knows the sources in Jewish law - not some ignorant speculating know-nothing to make something up. White Israelite also could have made up anything he wanted too. But that was not his intention. His intention was to find out about Jewish law.
BTW are you even Jewish? If not, you have absolutely no business "teaching" what you think is 'bible' to Jews.
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Religion should be logical. If something is forbidden, there should be a reason for it.
What are you talking about? Of course there are reasons that forbidden things are forbidden, and of course the oral law operates logically (and on mesorah - tradition). White Israelite asked to know what is forbidden and what is permitted. So I summarized that for him. He was not asking why. But certainly there is scriptural basis, you should have no doubt about that, and G-d has His reasons for the mitzvot which we can not ever know for sure but can contemplate and speculate and find meaning in them.
"So why would the depiction of living things be forbidden?
Humans will start to see a statue of a person, or a teddy bear for instance, as living objects and might even talk to it or consider it alive; when it is not.
This is quite insane when you think about it, and"
Did you read my post at all? "Depiction of living things" is NOT forbidden. Not in 2D, and in 3D only a HUMAN depiction is forbidden. If you call Sun, moon, and stars "living things" then these are the only things forbidden in 2D drawings.
A Teddy Bear is not forbidden. Making one or owning one. It's not human.
Yes I read your post. I just choose to nót see you as all knowing.
I just give a logical explanation and that seems to bother you.
I am astounded at how pathetically insecure you sound. I am not "all knowing." The JEWISH LAW, operates on 'halacha' which is only arrived at through Talmudic study - a vast corpus of Oral tradition which expounds upon the Torah and is the only binding explanation of law with a tradition of interpretation stemming all the way back to Moshe and the first Jews that were. I did not even say that it was my own ideas I was giving over. My rabbi, who has studied the Talmud in depth and all the of the sources, has arrived at the halacha on this issue and gave a psak din (a ruling) for White Israelite who asked a halachic question. Jewish law does not operate on "making stuff up" - which is what you did here. You make a mockery of Judaism with your ignorant comments, and that has no place here.
Your invented speculation not only says nothing about what the Jewish law is or is not, and has no relevance since you do not claim to put any textual backing behind it or to have any source in Jewish sources, but it also was Wrong... Incorrect... According to Jewish law. You may not understand how Judaism operates, and I don't expect you to, but White Israelite's question was for a trained, qualified rabbi who knows the sources in Jewish law - not some ignorant speculating know-nothing to make something up. White Israelite also could have made up anything he wanted too. But that was not his intention. His intention was to find out about Jewish law.
BTW are you even Jewish? If not, you have absolutely no business "teaching" what you think is 'bible' to Jews.
Insecure? I wonder how you are going to reason that one.
I did not say you were 'all knowing', you speak like you previous post was a finite answer.
Jewish law? From what I understand different rabbi's will give different interpretation's so questioning yóúr rabbi's answer is only logical.
I am not making stuff up; I reason my theory and if you want to deny the theory I gave based on your own reasoning, then do so.
I don't mock Judaism and if you call somebody's comments ignorant you should at least back it up with reasoning and a bunch of 'how's' and 'why's'.
This is a place for righteous people. Apparently, the way you theorize as displayed by your own words, is that you will deny Truth, if it is nót directly backed by Jewish scriptures. That makes you a dogmatic sheep that can't think for himself.
I am 'teaching' here? I am not teaching anything. I give my explanation and that bothers you. Perhaps you need some counseling.
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Bio,
I take it that you are not Jewish because otherwise you would try to learn a little bit about how Halacha works. I have done a lot of explaining here and KWRBT and his Rabbi have summarized the Jewish law very well. Things are not made up by the Rabbis and as I said this Halacha is all based on the 2nd Commandment of the 10 Commandments {which by the way is the portion of the Torah which we read on Shabbat this week}. The second commandment is very clear about how Hashem views the creation of graven images.
Idolatry has been a big problem with the people of the world. Many people have ascribed powers to statues and to trees and other parts of nature. To this day people still believe that G-d has an image. The point of the second commandment is to ensure that people don't go around making idols and worshipping them. In this day and age people make themselves idols in many ways.
i dont know why you seem to have a problem understanding why Halacha has been determined to be the way it is. It is completely logical. There are codes of Jewish law in the Shulchan Aruch and other accepted works. And concerning how some Rabbis dispense Halacha doesn't negate that there are agreed upon decisions. A rabbi may give different answers to different people because the answer in law must be tailored to the person asking it.
In the case of Idolatry the Halacha which KWRBT brought down from his Rabbi is the universally accepted Halacha of Orthodox Judaism. While there are other 'denominations' of Judaism they are not authentic and are discounted by Torah Jews because the other 'denominations' have decided to nullify the Torah and commandments...
Shemot/Exodus 20
3 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
4 thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the LORD thy G-d am a jealous G-d, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me;
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Bio,
I take it that you are not Jewish because otherwise you would try to learn a little bit about how Halacha works. I have done a lot of explaining here and KWRBT and his Rabbi have summarized the Jewish law very well. Things are not made up by the Rabbis and as I said this Halacha is all based on the 2nd Commandment of the 10 Commandments {which by the way is the portion of the Torah which we read on Shabbat this week}. The second commandment is very clear about how Hashem views the creation of graven images.
Idolatry has been a big problem with the people of the world. Many people have ascribed powers to statues and to trees and other parts of nature. To this day people still believe that G-d has an image. The point of the second commandment is to ensure that people don't go around making idols and worshipping them. In this day and age people make themselves idols in many ways.
i dont know why you seem to have a problem understanding why Halacha has been determined to be the way it is. It is completely logical. There are codes of Jewish law in the Shulchan Aruch and other accepted works. And concerning how some Rabbis dispense Halacha doesn't negate that there are agreed upon decisions. A rabbi may give different answers to different people because the answer in law must be tailored to the person asking it.
In the case of Idolatry the Halacha which KWRBT brought down from his Rabbi is the universally accepted Halacha of Orthodox Judaism. While there are other 'denominations' of Judaism they are not authentic and are discounted by Torah Jews because the other 'denominations' have decided to nullify the Torah and commandments...
Shemot/Exodus 20
3 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
4 thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the LORD thy G-d am a jealous G-d, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me;
I don't say rabbi's make things up; I point to the fact that a lot of things are argued about and so are not directly certain to a certain degree by Judaism itself.
I don't understand why you seem to see me as if I would have a problem with how the Halacha has been determined. I just give my own explanation based on how awareness works. This is not contradicting Judaism.
If I have written anything that would be completely absurd, then please point out what it is, but I think what I wrote makes quite good sense.
Kwrbt is getting heated up for no apparent reasons other than that I apparently seem to tighten up the rules for idolatry and refute his idiotic personal comments.
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This morning in the Shuir I listened to on this weekends Parasha which is the portion which relates the giving of the Ten Statements {Ten Commandments} at the mount of Sinai the Rabbi related exactly the halacha which KWRBT related here...
There is nothing wrong with drawings and photographs which are 2 dimensional representations. But the questions begin when we are talking about statues.... There is disagreement on whether just a Bust {a head and chest} and not the whole human figure is made into a statue... Some of the Rabbis say that busts and incomplete statues {ones which have had limbs broken off, etc.} are not a violation of the 2nd commandment while others take a more strict view... Also making representations of the sun the moon and the stars is explicitly forbidden by the 2nd commandment.
If you are interested in listening to this Rabbi explain some of the deeper meanings of the Ten Statements I can provide a link to this talk...
PS: I have known KWRBT for over 2 years now and he doesn't make 'idiotic personal comments' without a reason. It seemed from your first response to him that you were denigrating what his Rabbi said. I have heard and read some of what his Rabbi says and I must say that he seems like a very wise teacher.
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Read a little about Idolatory:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/519586/jewish/Whats-So-Terrible-about-Idolatry.htm
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So there are no sculptures in art museums in Israel?
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So there are no sculptures in art museums in Israel?
That is an entirely different question.... Technically speaking, if Israel were to be a Torah observant nation, there should be no complete statues in Israel...
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From http://www.modia.org/infos/etudes/attitude-of-judaism-toward-art.htm
Halakha (Jewish religious law) concerning art
Religious law is called “halakha.” The fact that the word derives from the root halakh (to go) indicates that religious laws do not aim to enclose or dominate people, like government laws, but represent, instead, a process, a going towards. It is in this perspective that we should understand what Jewish law says about art, rather than focusing right away on the prohibition against representation, for this prohibition is simply a consequence of the desire to safeguard the process of life. If a painting takes the place of reality and of life, then it is prohibited. But if the artist Bezalel is capable of creating a representation which is the vehicle of life, renders this process visible and creates a relationship with the essence of life, then we need the artist and his role is essential. Furthermore, it is he who will give us a constantly visible reflection of a world that is beautiful and creative: he does this through his interiority and exteriority, and through his relations with the world, for he circulates his art and sells it.
In Hebrew, the word for face is in the plural, “ panim,” meaning faces, because we have both an inner and an outer face and they must both be present in us and in the person who “faces” us. The face represents the part of our bodies that most reflects failure or success. It is for this reason that the representation of the human person was specifically forbidden. But today, all the Great Rabbis allow themselves to be photographed. This is permitted on condition their representations are not viewed as idols, as objects substituting for life. The Psalms and the Prophets ridicule idols who do not talk, and do not feel. In contrast, when everything is in order, then art is present and necessary. What demonstrates this best are the two cherubs (kerumvim) first described in Genesis 3, 24, then in Exodus 25, 18-20 and 37, 7-9. It is said that the place from which God speaks is “between the two cherubs” made by the artist. Refer also to the following passages: I Samuel 4, 4. II Samuel 6, 2. II Kings 19, 15. Isaiah 37, 16 and Psalms 80, 2 and 99, 1.
The Sages, or possekei din, who define the rules that govern representation in a particular period or for a particular community, refer first and foremost to these basic principles. The way they are applied is secondary. The same principles pertain to the representation of faces and bodies, as well as to people’s names, for it is expressly forbidden to use a person’s name with disrespect or scorn.
Those who are very strict and doubt whether the representation of beauty is permissible, should refer to Tractate Shabbat of the Babylonian Talmud, page 133b, which states: “Baraitha: Exodus 15, 2 says in the Song of Moshe and of the people: ze Eli ne anvehu – Here is my God and I shall embellish him. So, adorn yourself before him with good deeds, make in His honor a beautiful hut for the festival of Succot, choose a beautiful palm, a beautiful shofar, beautiful fringes for the tsisiot at the corners of your garments, a beautiful book and write the Torah in His name with beautiful ink, a handsome pen, a talented scribe, and wrap it in precious silk. Abba Shaul tells us that this also signifies that we must strive to resemble Him: particularly, by being compassionate and full of mercy, as He is Himself.” Judaism, thus, accords a place of eminence to works of art, to human beings as works of art, to interiority and exteriority as works of art. Such works of art have nothing to with objects that are “fashionable” or accorded great value on the art market. When art adheres to the principles of Judaism, there is no prohibition: on the contrary, there is even an obligation to create it. The image of the dirty, ugly religious Jew is not a Jewish image.
In order to avoid the negative slide that leads to idol worship, the Torah tells us in Exodus 20, 4: “Thou shalt not make thee any craven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above or that is in the earth beneath or that is in the water under the earth.” This is a prohibition against the representation of God, or the making of an object that claims to represent God. This prohibition is specifically set out in the summary of the Torah, in Devarim (Deuteronomy) 5, 8-9. Chapter 4, 16-18 of the same book prohibits the representation of human beings, male and female, for use as idols.
On this basis, and because of the different needs of Jewish communities throughout history, the ordinances issued by the Sages against representation varied (as in Islam). In modern times, as idol worship became less prevalent, the rabbis permitted the representation of a person’s face, even their own, for this did not represent idolatry. The specific authorization was given by Rav Solomon Hirsch (1762-1842) who was painted, engraved on medals, and even sculpted for his community by Drummond. We are now at a point where even the strictest streams of Judaism produce photographs and films about their rabbis and other figures (caution against idolatry remains necessary, for there is always a risk that the writings or image of an rabbi can unconsciously be confused with the Creator, but the problem, then, is not limited to the image but to the whole relationship.) Conversely, there remains the prohibition against transforming the image of a person into an object of scorn and, therefore, no longer in the image of God: this includes the widespread, immodest exploitation of the female body and its use as a cheap source of excitement and profit for the consumer industry.
Jewish art or art created by Jews preserves the age-old values of Jewish tradition which represents life, creation, interiority, true relationships and respect for human beings. Whether the subject of the art is religious or profane is irrelevant; what is important is the adherence to these principles.
Biblical figures and themes in works of art
Numerous works of art have been based on Biblical themes and figures, or bear Biblical titles; Adam and Eve, Abraham and Sarah, the sacrifice of Isaac, Joseph and his brothers, all the episodes relating to the life of the Children of Israel in Egypt, in the desert, in Sinai, David and Goliath, Solomon, the rites of the Temple, and the destruction of the Temple.
Then there are the many images of Jewish community life (the synagogue, places of study); the major events in Jewish life from birth, bar mitzvah, marriage, the Shabbat table, and death; the rabbis and important public figures; the artistic characteristics of each community; and the milestones in Jewish history – exiles, pogroms, the Holocaust, the return to Israel and the discovery by artists of the landscapes of the land of Israel.
There are major Jewish such as Picart, Gottlieb, Chagall and Modigliani. And great non-Jewish painters such as Rembrandt, Delacroix, who left us incomparable works. Also imprinted in our minds are the images of the hundreds of synagogues which rose following the destruction of the Temple and which survive to this day, contradicting the lie perpetrated by Christians that everything Jewish was destroyed in the year 70, to give way to Christianity; the images of the stones of Ashkelon, the mosaics of Bet Alfa and Hamam Lif, the lintel of the house of study at Dabbura, Capernaum, the menorah of Caesarea, of Hammath and Ein Gedi, the frescoes of Pekiin, the mosaics of Maon, Jericho, Naarah, Gaza, Beth Shean and Gerasa, and the synagogues of Gush Halav.
And in dispersion and exile, the wonderful, renowned synagogues of Toledo, Cordoba, Prague, Amsterdam, Venice, Florence, Ostia, and the tombs of Esther, Mordechai and the prophet Daniel in Iran.
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From RAMBAMS Mishne Torah on Avodah Zara {Idol Worship}
Chapter One
Halacha 1
During the times of Enosh, mankind made a great mistake, and the wise men of that generation gave thoughtless counsel. Enosh himself was one of those who erred.
Their mistake was as follows: They said God created stars and spheres with which to control the world. He placed them on high and treated them with honor, making them servants who minister before Him. Accordingly, it is fitting to praise and glorify them and to treat them with honor. [They perceived] this to be the will of God, blessed be He, that they magnify and honor those whom He magnified and honored, just as a king desires that the servants who stand before him be honored. Indeed, doing so is an expression of honor to the king.
After conceiving of this notion, they began to construct temples to the stars and offer sacrifices to them. They would praise and glorify them with words, and prostrate themselves before them, because by doing so, they would - according to their false conception - be fulfilling the will of God.
This was the essence of the worship of false gods, and this was the rationale of those who worshiped them. They would not say that there is no other god except for this star.
This message was conveyed by Jeremiah, who declared (10:7-8): "Who will not fear You, King of the nations, for to You it is fitting. Among all the wise men of the nations and in all their kingdoms, there is none like You. They have one foolish and senseless [notion. They conceive of their] empty teachings as wood;" i.e., all know that You alone are God. Their foolish error consists of conceiving of this emptiness as Your will.
Halacha 2
After many years passed, there arose people - false prophets - who told [their nations] that God had commanded them to say: Serve this star - or all the stars - sacrifice to it, offer libations to it, build a temple for it and make an image of it so that all people - including the women, the children, and the common people - could bow to it.
He would inform them of a form that he had conceived, and tell them that this is the image of the particular star, claiming that this was revealed to him in a prophetic vision. In this manner, the people began to make images in temples, under trees, and on the tops of mountains and hills.
People would gather together and bow down to them and the [false prophets] would say: This image is the source of benefit or harm. It is appropriate to serve it and fear it. Their priests would tell them: This service will enable you to multiply and be successful. Do this and this, or do not do this or this.
Subsequently, other deceivers arose and declared that a specific star, sphere, or angel had spoken to them and commanded them: Serve me in this manner. He would then relate a mode of service [telling them:] Do this, do not do this.
Thus, these practices spread throughout the world. People would serve images with strange practices - one more distorted than the other - offer sacrifices to them, and bow down to them. As the years passed, [God's] glorious and awesome name was forgotten by the entire population. [It was no longer part of] their speech or thought, and they no longer knew Him. Thus, all the common people, the women, and the children would know only the image of wood or stone and the temples of stone to which they were trained from their childhood to bow down and serve, and in whose name they swore.
The wise men among them would think that there is no God other than the stars and spheres for whose sake, and in resemblance of which, they had made these images. The Eternal Rock was not recognized or known by anyone in the world, with the exception of a [few] individuals: for example, Chanoch, Metushelach, Noach, Shem, and Ever. The world continued in this fashion until the pillar of the world - the Patriarch Abraham - was born.
Halacha 3
After this mighty man was weaned, he began to explore and think. Though he was a child, he began to think [incessantly] throughout the day and night, wondering: How is it possible for the sphere to continue to revolve without having anyone controlling it? Who is causing it to revolve? Surely, it does not cause itself to revolve.
He had no teacher, nor was there anyone to inform him. Rather, he was mired in Ur Kasdim among the foolish idolaters. His father, mother, and all the people [around him] were idol worshipers, and he would worship with them. [However,] his heart was exploring and [gaining] understanding.
Ultimately, he appreciated the way of truth and understood the path of righteousness through his accurate comprehension. He realized that there was one God who controlled the sphere, that He created everything, and that there is no other God among all the other entities. He knew that the entire world was making a mistake. What caused them to err was their service of the stars and images, which made them lose awareness of the truth.
Abraham was forty years old when he became aware of his Creator. When he recognized and knew Him, he began to formulate replies to the inhabitants of Ur Kasdim and debate with them, telling them that they were not following a proper path.
He broke their idols and began to teach the people that it is fitting to serve only the God of the world. To Him [alone] is it fitting to bow down, sacrifice, and offer libations, so that the people of future [generations] would recognize Him. [Conversely,] it is fitting to destroy and break all the images, lest all the people err concerning them, like those people who thought that there are no other gods besides these [images].
When he overcame them through the strength of his arguments, the king desired to kill him. He was [saved through] a miracle and left for Charan. [There,] he began to call in a loud voice to all people and inform them that there is one God in the entire world and it is proper to serve Him. He would go out and call to the people, gathering them in city after city and country after country, until he came to the land of Canaan - proclaiming [God's existence the entire time] - as [Genesis 21:33] states: "And He called there in the name of the Lord, the eternal God."
When the people would gather around him and ask him about his statements, he would explain [them] to each one of them according to their understanding, until they turned to the path of truth. Ultimately, thousands and myriads gathered around him. These are the men of the house of Abraham.
He planted in their hearts this great fundamental principle, composed texts about it, and taught it to Isaac, his son. Isaac also taught others and turned [their hearts to God]. He also taught Jacob and appointed him as a teacher.
[Jacob] taught others and turned [the hearts] of all those who gathered around him [to God]. He also taught all of his children. He selected Levi and appointed him as the leader. He established him [as the head of] the academy to teach them the way of God and observe the mitzvot of Abraham.
[Jacob] commanded his sons that the leadership should not depart from the descendants of Levi, so that the teachings would not be forgotten. This concept proceeded and gathered strength among the descendants of Jacob and those who collected around them, until there became a nation within the world which knew God.
When the Jews extended their stay in Egypt, however, they learned from the [Egyptians'] deeds and began worshiping the stars as they did, with the exception of the tribe of Levi, who clung to the mitzvot of the patriarchs - the tribe of Levi never served false gods.
Within a short time, the fundamental principle that Abraham had planted would have been uprooted, and the descendants of Jacob would have returned to the errors of the world and their crookedness. Because of God's love for us, and to uphold the oath He made to Abraham, our patriarch, He brought forth Moses, our teacher, the master of all prophets, and sent him [to redeem the Jews]. After Moses, our teacher, prophesied, and God chose Israel as His inheritance, He crowned them with mitzvot and informed them of the path to serve Him, [teaching them] the judgement prescribed for idol worshiper and all those who stray after it.
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PS: I have known KWRBT for over 2 years now and he doesn't make 'idiotic personal comments' without a reason. It seemed from your first response to him that you were denigrating what his Rabbi said. I have heard and read some of what his Rabbi says and I must say that he seems like a very wise teacher.
No it did not seem that I was denigrating what his rabbi said so yes he did make idiotic personal comments without a reason.
Not that I care though. I have strong convictions, unlike other people like muslims and others.
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I am astounded at how pathetically insecure you sound. I am not "all knowing." The JEWISH LAW, operates on 'halacha' which is only arrived at through Talmudic study - a vast corpus of Oral tradition which expounds upon the Torah and is the only binding explanation of law with a tradition of interpretation stemming all the way back to Moshe and the first Jews that were. I did not even say that it was my own ideas I was giving over. My rabbi, who has studied the Talmud in depth and all the of the sources, has arrived at the halacha on this issue and gave a psak din (a ruling) for White Israelite who asked a halachic question. Jewish law does not operate on "making stuff up" - which is what you did here. You make a mockery of Judaism with your ignorant comments, and that has no place here.
Your invented speculation not only says nothing about what the Jewish law is or is not, and has no relevance since you do not claim to put any textual backing behind it or to have any source in Jewish sources, but it also was Wrong... Incorrect... According to Jewish law. You may not understand how Judaism operates, and I don't expect you to, but White Israelite's question was for a trained, qualified rabbi who knows the sources in Jewish law - not some ignorant speculating know-nothing to make something up. White Israelite also could have made up anything he wanted too. But that was not his intention. His intention was to find out about Jewish law.
BTW are you even Jewish? If not, you have absolutely no business "teaching" what you think is 'bible' to Jews.
Insecure? I wonder how you are going to reason that one.
I did not say you were 'all knowing', you speak like you previous post was a finite answer.
It WAS a finite answer. It was a psak din from a qualified rabbi. You are in no place to disagree. 1. You cannot even disagree within the sources and take issue with the psak on any reasonable grounds from within Torah she baal Peh because you don't know any, and 2. You didn't even try. You gave some hypothetical speculation as your 'opinion' as if that matters worth 2 cents. It really doesn't. Like I said, White Israelite was not asking for opinions - everyone has one, and he can have his own, too. He was asking what Jewish law says about the issue. Only a qualified expert can answer that question. You didn't even pretend that you had sources behind you.
Jewish law? From what I understand different rabbi's will give different interpretation's so questioning yóúr rabbi's answer is only logical.
That's the end of this stupidity. This thread belongs in the Judaism section. Unfortunately you have no idea what you are talking about and you make a mockery not only of Judaism here, but moreso of yourself. Saying some wild speculation out of left field based on NOTHING does not constitute arguing over a psak of a rabbi. Your opinion about Torah is worth absolutely nothing, in fact less than zero if that was possible.
Furthermore, a Jew is not permitted to go shopping for psak. So once the halachic shaila is asked to a given rabbi, unless there is some pressing reason, the person cannot then go and try to find something more lenient or more strict, he should go with the psak he was given. I was doing White Israelite a favor so that he can be in direct contact with an Orthodox rav who is highly trained and well respected, very understanding of people, and whom I personally trust, so that he can get a psak din directly and know exactly what the boundaries are. Because you THINK Jewish law should be different based on your supposed "logic" has absolutely no relevance and no value. Period.
I am not making stuff up; I reason my theory and if you want to deny the theory I gave based on your own reasoning, then do so.
By definition, if your "theory" (your own words, yes it was completely "theory" - appropriate word choice) is not based within the sources of Jewish law, You HAVE made something up. Wholecloth.
I don't mock Judaism and if you call somebody's comments ignorant you should at least back it up with reasoning and a bunch of 'how's' and 'why's'.
The first one to MOCK anyone here was you. You made a snide remark that I thought I was "all knowing." I didn't just reject your baseless speculative idea for no reason, I rejected it because it completely disagrees with what Jewish law says. It doesn't get more fundamental than that. Your only response to the fact that it completely contradicts what Judaism says, was to make a snide remark about me or what I think about myself.
Judaism is based on Jewish law. Not, "I invented my own law and came up with a theory." Jewish law has tradition and authority behind it, stemming back to the Great Sanhedrin, and all the way back to Moshe's time. You are in no place to challenge it. Especially when you don't even know the sources and are not even pretending to argue WITHIN the sources, but instead baselessly provide your own subjective meaningless "opinion" which like I said, anyone can shoot from the hip and make up anything - which is why it is meaningless, just as much as if I did the same.
This is a place for righteous people. Apparently, the way you theorize as displayed by your own words, is that you will deny Truth, if it is nót directly backed by Jewish scriptures. That makes you a dogmatic sheep that can't think for himself.
In what way does this type of garbage belong on our forum? I haven't read the rest of this thread but this person should have been rebuked heavily for this atrocity.
I am 'teaching' here? I am not teaching anything. I give my explanation and that bothers you. Perhaps you need some counseling.
You instructed white israelite what to do after he asked a halachic question. What don't you understand? I don't need any counseling, and I would say you need your head examined, but I know you are being disingenuous. So cut the games and stop playing around. You know exactly what you did here, and you are trying to hide yourself and get all defensive as if I'm doing something wrong. What you have done in this thread is ridiculous. Completely over the line. There is no place for this here.
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I don't say rabbi's make things up; I point to the fact that a lot of things are argued about and so are not directly certain to a certain degree by Judaism itself.
Straw man argument. When rabbis dispute matters, it is within boundaries set out before them within the guidelines of Torah she baal peh. What you are saying, by your logic, would make the entire religion into a free-for-all. Yet it's not. Why? Very simply. Because it is not as you say.
There are certain matters about which no one argues. Then there are more complicated issues that are less agreed upon where there are differing opinions, and ultimately a psak halacha. And then in even more complicated cases (even less) there is not a set determined psak halacha and there will be differences of opinion from rabbi to rabbi. Not from goy to goy or lay person to lay person, but from qualified wise knowledgable rabbi who knows the sources to knowledgable qualified wise rabbi who knows the sources. You are trying to argue based on nothing, about things which there is nothing to argue about, and about which you have no knowledge in the sources. So again, what you say here matters not one iota.
Do not distort reality and deceive the Jews reading this into thinking your invented idea is true that Judaism means you can make up any idea you want and say that it is Torah, just because rabbis sometimes argue. This is called a straw man argument and it is simply not true.
I don't understand why you seem to see me as if I would have a problem with how the Halacha has been determined. I just give my own explanation based on how awareness works. This is not contradicting Judaism.
Once again being disingenuous. If you contradict the halacha, with whatever made up idea you have, you ARE contradicting Judaism. Very simple.
Kwrbt is getting heated up for no apparent reasons other than that I apparently seem to tighten up the rules for idolatry and refute his idiotic personal comments.
Once again you go on the attack and mock me, but you are not mocking me because it was not my "personal comments." Like I've repeated a thousand times in this thread, I was giving over the understanding of my rabbi explicitly as he told it to me since he is expert in these issues. You have the audacity to call it "idiotic" well I feel bad for you and what you will face for this. Once again this is over the line and has no place on this forum.
Let's get it straight so you can stop dodging and hiding and playing games.
If you dismiss out of hand a halachic decision of an Orthodox rabbi because you think you know better even though you don't even know Jewish law, and you provide no basis, you are attacking Judaism.
If you call a rabbi's ideas "idiotic" for no reason, you are attacking Judaism and that rabbi. (Although it is quite laughable to see you say such a thing given my rabbi's vast knowledge - what he says is far from "idiotic" ).
If you as a non-Jew attempt to tell Jews how to keep Jewish law, to teach Jews Torah, your behavior is a desecration surely violating Jewish law, and you are attacking Judaism and contradicting it.
Very simple. Starting to get it yet?
Instead of reflexively insisting that you are right here, why not get your ego in check in realize that you have overstepped your bounds as I have tried to tell you several times now.
Muman, you are going way too easy on this guy.
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So there are no sculptures in art museums in Israel?
I'm sure there are, but the people who made them if they made sculptures of humans, were clearly in violation. That's a shame. Israel as a state however does not necessarily follow the Torah in many avenues, so I'm sure such a museum would be in existence and contain such "artwork." If Jews followed Torah they would not be building statues of humans.
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There is nothing wrong with drawings and photographs which are 2 dimensional representations. But the questions begin when we are talking about statues.... There is disagreement on whether just a Bust {a head and chest} and not the whole human figure is made into a statue... Some of the Rabbis say that busts and incomplete statues {ones which have had limbs broken off, etc.} are not a violation of the 2nd commandment while others take a more strict view... Also making representations of the sun the moon and the stars is explicitly forbidden by the 2nd commandment.
Ah, very good. My rabbi also brought up this disagreement. He suggested a bust was ok in his opinion as he considered it incomplete. But I think he meant that as a b'diavad situation (after the fact- as in, if it was already made, ok, but that a person shouldn't make one). I would have to double-check with him again to make sure I understood him correctly.
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You instructed white israelite what to do after he asked a halachic question. What don't you understand? I don't need any counseling, and I would say you need your head examined, but I know you are being disingenuous. So cut the games and stop playing around. You know exactly what you did here, and you are trying to hide yourself and get all defensive as if I'm doing something wrong. What you have done in this thread is ridiculous. Completely over the line. There is no place for this here.
This is an open forum so I will give my opinion as many times as I want. All you are doing is crying about a topic being side-tracked, when this is a normal phenomena on fora. You act like a saviour towards other Jews by trying to 'protect' them. All you do is insulting Jews by claiming they can't think for themselves. This forum is not strictly for Jews; if you have a problem with that, don't come here.
You can rant all you want about me not knowing anything about Judaism; I never claimed I did.
"You instructed white israelite", "you know exactly what you did here"
You are a demagogue. You accuse me of trying to make Jews believe they can make anything up and you accuse me of trying to mindrape Jews out of Judaism. You can study scriptures all you want; your mouth is filled with filth.
And before you start crying over mockery and attacks; this is a mere observation.
I rationalize a thesis and you simply are unable to point out any flaw in my 'speculation' and cannot argue against it.
When I point to the fact that rabbi's still argue about things I do not turn Judaism in a free-for-all. You are a demagogue
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Bio, but the second commandment says not to make anything living, anything on earth and under the water....
I think that this interpretation is the 'strict' interpretation and I have seen more liberal interpretations even from Orthodox sources...
You call having a different opinion 'attacking'. This is an attempt to 'hide' that you are a demagogue by pretending to be a crybaby.
Again you are a demagogue when you say I call your rabbi's statements 'idiotic'. Apparently you have a bit of a 'blind spot' when it comes to your own flaws with 'idiotic personal statements'.
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You instructed white israelite what to do after he asked a halachic question. What don't you understand? I don't need any counseling, and I would say you need your head examined, but I know you are being disingenuous. So cut the games and stop playing around. You know exactly what you did here, and you are trying to hide yourself and get all defensive as if I'm doing something wrong. What you have done in this thread is ridiculous. Completely over the line. There is no place for this here.
This is an open forum so I will give my opinion as many times as I want. All you are doing is crying about a topic being side-tracked, when this is a normal phenomena on fora. You act like a saviour towards other Jews by trying to 'protect' them. All you do is insulting Jews by claiming they can't think for themselves. This forum is not strictly for Jews; if you have a problem with that, don't come here.
You can rant all you want about me not knowing anything about Judaism; I never claimed I did.
Here you go again with your obfuscation and ad hominem attacks - classic tactics employed by missionaries.
Stop playing games. I really thought you were going to grow up and let this thread go away yet you keep bringing it back up. Never did I say Jews can't think for themselves. This is your tactic. You make a straw-man out of me by accusing me of claiming this, and with this you attack me and Judaism. All I did was point out that your baseless opinion, which is worth nothing, was clearly in contradiction to what I had posted right beforehand as what Jewish law says about the issue. White Israelite asked what Jewish law says about the issue. Not what Obongo's cousin Leroy says about the issue. It's really quite simple.
You took offense to that. So you accused me of thinking I'm 'all knowing' when I merely pointed out that what you said contradicted Jewish law. That set the ball rolling and you just won't let it go. That led you to attack Judaism itself because you quite clearly are saying you don't accept what Jewish law says and you have a problem with the fact that your subjective view is dismissed out of hand on the grounds that it contradicts Jewish law and Jewish tradition. This "problem" of your prompted you to make a snide remark about me. Well, Jews do accept what Jewish tradition says, and that is why white israelite asked. You just refuse to accept that you crossed the line.
"You instructed white israelite", "you know exactly what you did here"
You are a demagogue. You accuse me of trying to make Jews believe they can make anything up and you accuse me of trying to mindrape Jews out of Judaism. You can study scriptures all you want; your mouth is filled with filth.
Filth? What filth would that be? You have a lot of nerve. You are the one who just used a filthy term. "mindrape" ? You are grasping for straws because you know you are wrong. You said an opinion that has nothing to do with Jewish law and contradicts Jewish law. Therefore it's incorrect as an instruction to a Jewish person as to how to behave. And thus completely irrelevant and baseless, like anyone's opinion. I can think the moon is made of cheese, but that does not mean that Jewish law says so. So why is my pointing out that you are incorrect, objectively speaking, from the standpoint of Jewish law, an invitation to insult me with snide remarks, say that I'm 'all knowing' and then call me a "demagogue" 15 times? You are once again over the line.
And before you start crying over mockery and attacks; this is a mere observation.
It's an "observation" to say my mouth is filled with filth?
I rationalize a thesis and you simply are unable to point out any flaw in my 'speculation' and cannot argue against it.
Now you are simply lying. And again you are trying to promote your own theories as if they are fact.
When I point to the fact that rabbi's still argue about things I do not turn Judaism in a free-for-all. You are a demagogue
Done whining now? Done with the ad hominem attacks or do you have more names for me?
I can see that the moderators are using the kid-gloves with you because you got publicity for JTF. This is wrong. You need to understand the guidelines of the forum and understand where you go over the line.
Bio, but the second commandment says not to make anything living, anything on earth and under the water....
I think that this interpretation is the 'strict' interpretation and I have seen more liberal interpretations even from Orthodox sources...
You call having a different opinion 'attacking'. This is an attempt to 'hide' that you are a demagogue by pretending to be a crybaby.
Again you are a demagogue when you say I call your rabbi's statements 'idiotic'. Apparently you have a bit of a 'blind spot' when it comes to your own flaws with 'idiotic personal statements'.
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Nope, I don't call having a different opinion attacking. I call attacking attacking.
Do you ever say anything of substance or do you just accuse accuse accuse and insult insult insult. You need to be told what is acceptable on this forum and what isn't. I don't care how many signs you hold up on tv.
Like I've said 100 times already, I was giving over his opinion on the matter, in Jewish law, not some baseless speculation I came up with by listening to the birds. So why don't you be more specific and tell us exactly what is "idiotic" ?
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Look at the title of the thread. It's a query about Judaism. Not an opinion poll.
If you can't handle the fact that your opinion has no validity and is worth less than nothing in this context, that's too bad. Grow up, and keep the insults to yourself.
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You instructed white israelite what to do after he asked a halachic question. What don't you understand? I don't need any counseling, and I would say you need your head examined, but I know you are being disingenuous. So cut the games and stop playing around. You know exactly what you did here, and you are trying to hide yourself and get all defensive as if I'm doing something wrong. What you have done in this thread is ridiculous. Completely over the line. There is no place for this here.
This is an open forum so I will give my opinion as many times as I want. All you are doing is crying about a topic being side-tracked, when this is a normal phenomena on fora. You act like a saviour towards other Jews by trying to 'protect' them. All you do is insulting Jews by claiming they can't think for themselves. This forum is not strictly for Jews; if you have a problem with that, don't come here.
You can rant all you want about me not knowing anything about Judaism; I never claimed I did.
"You instructed white israelite", "you know exactly what you did here"
You are a demagogue. You accuse me of trying to make Jews believe they can make anything up and you accuse me of trying to mindrape Jews out of Judaism. You can study scriptures all you want; your mouth is filled with filth.
And before you start crying over mockery and attacks; this is a mere observation.
I rationalize a thesis and you simply are unable to point out any flaw in my 'speculation' and cannot argue against it.
When I point to the fact that rabbi's still argue about things I do not turn Judaism in a free-for-all. You are a demagogue
.
Bio, but the second commandment says not to make anything living, anything on earth and under the water....
I think that this interpretation is the 'strict' interpretation and I have seen more liberal interpretations even from Orthodox sources...
You call having a different opinion 'attacking'. This is an attempt to 'hide' that you are a demagogue by pretending to be a crybaby.
Again you are a demagogue when you say I call your rabbi's statements 'idiotic'. Apparently you have a bit of a 'blind spot' when it comes to your own flaws with 'idiotic personal statements'.
Bio,
I have been trying very hard to understand where you are coming from. I assume you are a neophyte when it comes to Judaism and as a result you should be in a mode where you are trying to learn, not insulting and denigrating a Torah Scholar like KWRBT.
As I said before... In Judaism we have a thing called Halacha, or Jewish Law... These laws are not made up as we go along, they have been decided upon by the great Sages of Judaism and written down over the course of history. These laws are compiled in tractates like the Talmud and in the Shulchan Aruch. These laws are not debatable, they are laws which are set in stone and are derived directly from our Torah and other scriptures.
So while you may be able to state what your opinion is, it is also true that all you are is stating your opinion. It seems to me you have a lot of contempt for the system of Jewish law. If I were you I would analyze where this hostility originates from, whether you are engaging in a form of antisemitism... I dont know if this comes from hatred on your part but I have observed that you are often a hostile and engaging forum member.
The Halacha concerning Images has been relayed to the JTF forum and according to several Rabbis I have consulted and the websites I have found KWRBTs explanation is the halacha. If you still think you are right, and you are not a Jew, then I say that a gentile cannot poskin Jewish law {as a matter of fact Jews will reject any law which gentiles bring down even if it is the same judgement a Jewish court would bring down}. If you are a Jew then I suggest you find a good Rabbi and explain why you hate your own religion as you do... I suspect you are not a Jew and as a result your opinion in this matter is completely irrelevant.
PS: It is the responsibility of all Jews to help ensure the spiritual purity of all Jews. The Torah commanded us to rebuke those Jews who don't follow the commandments... I don't think there is anything wrong with a Jew trying to teach fellow Jews the halachas which his Rabbi teaches.... As I said I have heard his Rabbi speak and I consider him a Torah Scholar.
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Well, I have a ton of dolls. I like dolls. I do nothing with them, they are just pretty and used in my boudoir for decor.
My heart and soul HATE evil. This, HaShem is happy with in my life.
I have NO image that is even remotely close to a 'g'od like statue, etc. NOTHING.
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Guys, it looks like you've all had your say on this matter. So I think I'll lock this thread and move it to the Torah section.
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בס''ד
Bio and kwrbt, why are you fighting? Can't we have discussions here without being so hypersensitive?
kwrbt, Bio was not mocking Judaism. He was simply asking legitimate questions. I don't believe that his comment about being "all knowing" was intended to insult. He certainly is not a missionary.
Bio, kwrbt assumed that you were ridiculing Judaism and his rabbi's opinion. I know that you weren't doing that. But that's why he reacted the way he did. He misunderstood you.
Bio and kwrbt, you are both great people. This is all a big misunderstanding that led to personal attacks. Please forgive each other. And if I have said something here that offends, please forgive me as well.
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I have always wondered about this and why Jews and Christians have a different interpretation of this commandment (we have never read it to prohibit images, just those that are meant as idols).
it is not true to say Christians "never" read it literally, read up on Byzantine iconoclasm. Furthermore, some conservative Protestant groups have very plain Churches with no images etc.
but after a period in the 8th/9th century of removing icons and images from Christian churches, the Church eventually settled on accepting iconography and images, as they felt that it was acceptable, as they believed that HaShem had become manifest in the material world through Jesus. that is why Jews and Christians disagree.
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I have always wondered about this and why Jews and Christians have a different interpretation of this commandment (we have never read it to prohibit images, just those that are meant as idols).
it is not true to say Christians "never" read it literally, read up on Byzantine iconoclasm. Furthermore, some conservative Protestant groups have very plain Churches with no images etc.
but after a period in the 8th/9th century of removing icons and images from Christian churches, the Church eventually settled on accepting iconography and images, as they felt that it was acceptable, as they believed that HaShem had become manifest in the material world through Jesus. that is why Jews and Christians disagree.
That idea is exactly heretical according to the Jewish faith. Hashem cannot have a material body, he is incorporeal and infinite. One has only to read the Torah to learn that Christianity is competely illogical and impossible to believe for a religious Jew. I don't want to denigrate those Christians who read this section, but please keep your religion to your own forums and leave this forum to discuss Torah from the Jewish perspective... Thank you..
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That idea is exactly heretical according to the Jewish faith. Hashem cannot have a material body, he is incorporeal and infinite. One has only to read the Torah to learn that Christianity is competely illogical and impossible to believe for a religious Jew. I don't want to denigrate those Christians who read this section, but please keep your religion to your own forums and leave this forum to discuss Torah from the Jewish perspective... Thank you..
did you actually bother to read what I wrote?
the Church eventually settled on accepting iconography and images, as they felt that it was acceptable, as they believed that HaShem had become manifest in the material world through Jesus. that is why Jews and Christians disagree.
I was explaining why Christians and Jews have different opinions, pointing out what Christians believe, everything there is a fact about Christian belief. it was not proselytising, I am not a Christian.
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Wake up you idiot, this is a JEWISH forum. You don't have the right to be here, let alone to criticize this religion--it's just that Chaim is a nice guy and doesn't discriminate against anyone who professes to support Israel. Obviously you hate Judaism, and that's why your arse has been banned.
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Wake up you idiot, this is a JEWISH forum. You don't have the right to be here, let alone to criticize this religion--it's just that Chaim is a nice guy and doesn't discriminate against anyone who professes to support Israel. Obviously you hate Judaism, and that's why your arse has been banned.
Who got banned?