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Torah and Jewish Idea => Torah and Jewish Idea => Topic started by: Dan Ben Noah on May 11, 2012, 05:06:41 am

Title: Shalom
Post by: Dan Ben Noah on May 11, 2012, 05:06:41 am
Shalom
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Harzel on May 11, 2012, 05:38:59 am
Pure fantasy and defamation against a great Jewish scholar.
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Harzel on May 11, 2012, 09:32:47 am
Why is it not surprising that the silver haired witch has also released a nutty video where she apologized to ARABS whom she says are persecuted by Nazi infiltrator and Nazified Jews.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNde6Qf1zTs&feature=relmfu
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Lisa on May 11, 2012, 10:17:53 am
But she only looks like a witch, Isaac Luria actually practiced witchcraft.  And the founders of Israel WERE Nazified Jews, I thought there was a video on the forum showing that before.

Dan, have you read the book "Perfidy" by Ben Hecht?  As a Jew, it made me sick to my stomach and very depressed.  It was all about the Nazified Jewish founders of Israel, and how they purposely avoided helping the Jews of Europe escape the Holocaust. 
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Harzel on May 11, 2012, 10:19:26 am
But she only looks like a witch, Isaac Luria actually practiced witchcraft.  And the founders of Israel WERE Nazified Jews, I thought there was a video on the forum showing that before.
But she blames the Jews for oppressing Arabs, just like the all the real nazis of the world do. Dan I think you need some spiritual guidance from real rabbis, as opposed to witches and that loudmouth "rabbi" you found on youtube.
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Harzel on May 11, 2012, 10:57:02 am
I don't go to them for spiritual guidance.  What's going on here is if I find one true video or interesting thing they have to say that is not currently accepted by the majority of Jews, you try to dig up something that they said that doesn't go along with JTF ideology, rendering anything they have to say worthless.  I don't agree with everything this woman says, or everything that Rabbi Asher Meza says.  Putting up one video of theirs is not meant to endorse them as spiritual guides.  But they are right about certain things, such as Lurianic Kabbalah.  Rabbis have written against Lurianic Kabbala.  I don't know if Luria was exactly a Vatican plant, but it is an interesting theory, and it's nice to see there are Orthodox Jews out there fighting against mysticism.
I show to you that these people are frauds. You can't learn anything that has to do with morality from such people. If you really want to dive into this issue I think you should look into credible Jewish rabbis and Jewish literature.

But if you really want to learn how to defame kabalah from self hating Jews look into the arch kike Gershom Scholem.
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Harzel on May 11, 2012, 11:57:07 am
Actually the woman in these videos claims that the true original kabbalah has to do with morality.  It has nothing to do with the pagan concepts of Isaac Luria, but with spiritual exercises of morality that involves things like fasting, prayer, random acts of kindness, etc. in a continuous way that is designed to prepare a person to receive prophecy (not that they actually will receive prophecy).  Now I don't know if this actually is real "kabbalah", but again, it is an interesting theory.  And the morality version of kabbalah has much more appeal to me than the occult version.  I am attracted to morality and truth-seeking.  This is what attracted me to Judaism, Kahanist ideology, and Rambam.
I suggest you try to read the books of rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzatto. מסילת ישרים in particular which is one of the foundations of the morality literature in Judaism. You cannot learn morality from lying frauds like that woman.
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: muman613 on May 11, 2012, 12:43:29 pm
This is utter nonsense...

It is a defamation of Judaism. There are many videos on Youtube which claim Kabbalah to be witchcraft, usually posted by Christians who hate Judaism.

This too is one of those crappy videos...



PS: The logic of claiming that the Vatican wants Tzfat because Luria was a 'plant' is about as logical as claiming that King David was a Vatican plant because the Vatican is interested in the City of David also...
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: muman613 on May 11, 2012, 12:55:57 pm
Here is a biography of Rabbi Isaac Luria from Chabad:



http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/111878/jewish/Rabbi-Isaac-Luria-The-Ari-Hakodosh.htm

Rabbi Isaac Luria - The Ari Hakodosh
The Arizal (5294-5332; 1534-1572)

Rabbi Isaac Halevi Luria has become famous as the "Ari," the holy lion; Ari represents the initials of “Ashkenazi Rabbi Isaac” As his name indicates, his family originally lived in Germany, whence they had wandered to Jerusalem. There the man was born who was to play a magnificent role not only in that century of spiritual and cultural revolutions, but down to our very days.

At a very early age Rabbi Isaac Luria lost his father and he went to Cairo, Egypt, where Mordecai Frances, the rich brother of his mother took care of his upbringing and education. He attended the Yeshiva of Rabbi David ben Zimri, the Chief Rabbi of Egypt, known as the author of many great commentaries and responsa under the name of Radbaz. The brilliant youngster became one of the close disciples of the Radbaz, and his studies of the Talmud early promoted him to heights of scholarly achievements. The only extant product of his work in Gemara and Halachah, is a commentary to Zevachim. When Rabbi Mordecai Frances saw the great success of his young nephew, he gave him his daughter as a wife and assured him of sufficient means for a livelihood.

Yet the deep and introspective nature of Rabbi Isaac Luria was not satisfied by the study of Halachah alone. He acquired knowledge of Cabbala and devoted his entire life to its study and dissemination. At an early age he began his long stays in the solitude of the Nile River. For seven long years he lived all by himself, immersed in the study of the "Zohar," the main work of Cabbala, and other minor Cabbalistic writings, and returned only once a week, on Shabbos, to his family in Cairo. Possessed of a fiery and noble soul, he was wholly attracted to the universe of deeper wisdom and sought the meaningful interpretation of all phases of life, nature, and prayer. He spent many days in fast, prayer and study. In his tireless efforts to penetrate the inner chambers of the Torah, he discovered much of the true meaning of the Jewish faith. He was able to work out a whole system of a Cabbalistic doctrine on the world, and on the role of the Torah and its commandments in the life of man.

Filled with the fire of inspiration and enthusiasm, he set out to cleanse the world of the spirit of impurity and to replace the rule of evil by the recognition of G-d. About the year 1569, he took his family and migrated to Jerusalem and from there to Safed, the center of all study and practice of Cabbala. Soon a large group of disciples gathered about him and listened to his interpretations of the deeper meaning of all happenings and occurrences in the world. More and more men flocked to him and accepted the tenets of a holy and ascetic life which the Ari Hakodosh set down as a necessary requirement for participation in the circle of his followers. Under his inspired guidance, prayer assumed a deeper meaning, since the significance of each word and phrase was interpreted by him. The fast days and holidays turned into genuine turning points of religious life, and the Shabbos became the pivot of holy experience and inspiration, for it was devoted exclusively to spiritual activity. Each Sabbath meal, filled with songs of holy content, many of them written and composed by the Ari Hakodosh himself, was an offering to G-d, and the Melaveh Malkeh represented a stirring tribute to the departing Sabbath.

In such and similar manner, most aspects of the Jewish life and faith were given new content and color. Rabbi Isaac Luria's teachings were spread wide and far and reached all corners of the world, wherever Jews had settled. Amongst the most ardent exponents of the Ari's teachings was his disciple and successor to the leadership of the Cabbalists, Rabbi Chaim Vital. Rabbi Chaim Vital recorded the revelations and explanations of his great master, and they were among the most printed books in those early days of the printing press. Another ardent disciple and exponent was Rabbi Israel Saruk.

Rabbi Isaac Luria's personality inspired all the great men who had penetrated deeper than most mortals, into the world of Cabbala. The Ari died at the age of thirty-eight years, mourned by the entire Jewish people. Despite his short life, he left an indelible impression on religious Jewish life and religious reaching. He introduced many holy Minhagim (customs) which have become part and parcel of our customs and services. His songs and prayers have been widely adopted and partially incorporated into the Siddur. Entire communities guide themselves by the "Nusach HoAri" and much of his teachings has been used to form the basis of the great Chassidic movement. Due to his influence and inspiration Judaism was able to withstand the onslaughts of many creeds and ideas that were promoted during the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. He certainly counts among the holiest and most important leaders of the Jewish people.
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Tag-MehirTzedek on May 11, 2012, 06:40:59 pm
I don't identify myself with "Kabbalism" or whatever, but to say that the Ari was a Vatican plant is absurd. Even Rav Yakov Emdem (who wrote agains't the Zohar) had great respect for the Ari.
 Also just as their are issues with the Zohar their are also some issues with More Nevuhim are we going to demify everything? Take what is truthful and correct, what is problematic don't accept and what your no tsure put in your maybe column at your mind.
 By the way I listened to this lady before, she is kookoo.
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: edu on May 13, 2012, 05:37:48 am
The Mishna Brura held that Arizal was an observant Jew and sometimes quotes from Arizal.
I accept the evaluation of the Mishna Brura of Rabbi Isaac Luria and not the evaluation of the lady in the video
and I refuse to even listen to what she has to say.
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on May 13, 2012, 01:33:35 pm
I have not read that book, but I saw the video that Tag Mechir Tzedek put up which showed quotes from the founders of Israel that were indistinguishable from Nazi ideology.  Now the woman in these videos posits the theory that in addition to those self-hating Jews, there were actual German Nazis who infiltrated the Zionist movement so that they could continue their struggle against the Jews in Israel.  I don't know nor am I qualified to know if this is true or not, but it is an interesting theory, especially when taking into consideration some of the evil things that were done to Jews by the establishment as well as the Nazi ties of Haaretz.

That's absurd.  The german nazis and officials entered the syrian and egyptian governments to continue their programs of extermination.  This is well-documented.   They did thta because those countries were interested in and attempted to exterminate the israeli Jews.

Other than yitzak rabin, there were not incidents of Israeli soldiers opening fire and rampaging Jews.  It was Jewish criminals who were the problem, german nazis were fighting alongside the arabs.
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on May 13, 2012, 01:37:44 pm
I suggest you try to read the books of rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzatto. מסילת ישרים in particular which is one of the foundations of the morality literature in Judaism. You cannot learn morality from lying frauds like that woman.

Indeed a great suggestion by Zelhar.  "Ramchal" as he is commonly known, was certainly a mystic yet his text Mesilat Yesharim is one of the all time classics on morality and character traits.  And even I admit that it is great lol.
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: muman613 on May 13, 2012, 02:07:00 pm
Indeed a great suggestion by Zelhar.  "Ramchal" as he is commonly known, was certainly a mystic yet his text Mesilat Yesharim is one of the all time classics on morality and character traits.  And even I admit that it is great lol.

Yes , this is called Mussar...

http://www.torah.org/learning/mussar-psych/mussar21.html

Quote
Mussar, the Torah’s approach to personal growth has, at its most fundamental core, the call to utilize the entire physical world in the service of the transcendent, eternal world. The Torah calls upon every human being (both Jews and Gentiles in different ways) to recognize this world as the place to activate G-d’s Will through the use of the physical world of things, feelings, thoughts and actions. The Torah teaches us how to harness the material world in the service of transcendent connection to eternity.

By contrast, other forms of self-improvement are aimed at capitalizing on the transcendent aspect of a person in the service of the physical world. Being calmer, meditating, looking beyond the moment, understanding values, prioritizing and so on are all seen as tools in the pursuit of a better physical existence, whether that means a better marriage, friendships, a job or even a vacation. The point of self-improvement is to harness the transcendent world of a person in the service of his physical existence.

Naaleh on-line has a great video series on Ramchals Mesilat Yesharim @

http://www.naaleh.com/search/class/19
Quote
The Mesillat Yesharim ("Path of the Just") is an ethical text composed in 1740 by the influential Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzato. Considered by many to be the core text for anyone engaged in a serious quest for self-improvement, the Mesillat Yesharim answers such basic questions as the nature of Man’s purpose in life as well as the proper and improper methods of drawing close to G-d. Rabbi Yitzchak Cohen develops the ideas presented in this important work, and makes each point relevant to the daily lives of his listeners


And Rabbi Weins site has this to say about Ramchal:

http://www.rabbiwein.com/Essential-Classicsbr-Books-That-Have-Made-a-Differencebr-4-Lectures-P998.html

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Mesilat Yesharim - Because of his Kabbalistic teachings, critics hounded the Ramchal for his entire short life, making sure his writings were never read. Yet centuries later, his definitive work Mesilat Yesharim became the cornerstone of the mussar movement. Likening this word to a great maze, the Ramchal lays down the foundation of righteous behavior - the map we need to navigate through the outer trappings and find the path to truth.
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: muman613 on May 13, 2012, 02:10:43 pm
More on the Mussar Movement:

http://www.jewishideas.org/articles/mussar-jewish-psycho-ethical-model-our-time

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This movement is Mussar. The Mussar movement arose in the nineteenth century, most centrally influenced by R. Israel Wolf Lipkin, known as Reb Yisrael Salanter (1810–1883), in a period impacted by the Enlightenment and what Reb Yisrael perceived as a lack of spiritual/ethical depth in parts of the Jewish community including the yeshivot. Reb Yisrael derived his central teachings from the Torah, Proverbs (Mishlei), Saadya Gaon’s Emunot V’Deotfrom the tenth century, Ibn Pakuda’s Hovot Halevavotfrom the eleventh Century, and the Ramhal’s Mesilat Yesharim from the eighteenth century.

Reb Yisrael was bothered by the phenomenon of Jews being outwardly observant of ritual commandments while at the same time neglecting social and interpersonal commandments. For example, he noticed that fellow Jews were very concerned about discovering a drop of blood in an egg (which would deem it non-kosher), but not as concerned with the blood that rises in the face of someone who has just been hurt by the evil tongue. He wanted one to become aware of inner structure as the judge of a religious act; if one did not become more aware one would end up living a life based on habit, diversion, and conformity. What has often passed for religion is this habituation pattern (making of religion a mere plethora of obsessive details to gain control over anxiety); so- called reason can also be just a rationalization of instincts and fears (for example, the male fear of giving up power and control of the synagogue can lead to the halakhic claim that women are only permitted to take on proscribed roles).

In Reb Yisrael’s eyes, religion had become a hergel,a cultural “habit,” where people came together to join a community which supported a specific lifestyle, but did not sufficiently confront their behavior, inner motivations, and elevate their religious practices as a means toward connecting to G-d. He tried to understand this phenomenon and came to the conclusion that human beings are more powerfully influenced by deep emotional forces than simple rational motivations. Unless these emotional forces are addressed, they will always undermine our rational proclivities. He called these forces keihah,the dim or dark part of the psyche, as opposed to the less potent meir,bright, clear part of the psyche (Ohr Yisrael, p. 25). The dim part of the psyche could become ruled by the bright part, but only with consistent work, combining intellect and emotion.
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Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: muman613 on May 13, 2012, 02:17:48 pm
I have an Artscroll commentary on Mesillat Yesharim on my bookshelf:

http://www.artscroll.com/Books/ligh.html

(http://www.artscroll.com/images/covers/l/ligh.gif)

Quote
Description:

Few books have been classics for scholars and laymen alike. Mesillas Yesharim/Path of the Just is at the top of that select list. In crisp, flowing language, in a step-by-step presentation that combines keen insights into human nature with goals that inspire, encourage, and challenge, this masterpiece presents answers to the age old question, “What is man’s obligation in his world? ”

The author of this primer for life is Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzatto, the Ramchal, who was a phenomenal sage, philosopher, ethicist, saint, and Kabbalist. The Gaon of Vilna said that if Ramchal were alive, he, the Gaon himself, would have traveled to study mussar under him.

But Ramchal was just as much the guide for simple shoemakers and wagon drivers, then as now. For nearly three centuries, his Mesillas Yesharim has been the indispensable, well-thumbed road map to fulfillment for the full gamut of serious and intelligent people.

This work gives Mesillas Yesharim a new dimension for modern times. In it, Rabbi Abraham J. Twerski M.D. pours a lifetime of knowledge and experience. A master of the spirit and the mind, Rabbi Twerski applies the timeless to the timely.

The author quotes and translates key passages from Mesillas Yesharim and applies them to the problems and hurdles of modern life. In the process, the reader sees a vintage classic with fresh eyes, and appreciates Ramchal with unexpected clarity.

Rabbi Twerski’s previous books, such as Living Each Day, Smiling Each Day, Living Each Week, and his brilliant commentary to the Pesach Haggadah have endeared him to countless readers. This volume raises his work to a new plateau of value and insight.
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: edu on May 14, 2012, 02:47:04 am
The Talmud tells us that for a reason I won't go into right now, the burial of Rabbi Elazar the son of Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai was delayed between 18 to 22 years, see Baba Metzia page 84.
He was so righteous his body would not decay.
One day the Talmud tells us, a worm came out of the ear of his dead body. Rabbi Elazar later appeared in a dream to his wife and told her not to worry. No further damage would occur to his body. And the reason, that the worm came out of his ear was that on one occasion, he heard the derision of a Torah scholar, but did not react forcefully enough to defend the honor of that Torah scholar.
Dan, I know you had good intentions, but you ended up slandering a legitimate Torah scholar, and I pray to G-d that he considers that I have sufficiently stood up for the honor of Rabbi Yitzchak Luria, also known as the Arizal.
I say this even though I often follow other Rabbis, who argue with the positions advocated by Arizal.
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on May 14, 2012, 04:18:23 am
Watched the first 5 minutes so far.. How can I take this lady seriously.   666?    That's just a number and has absolutely zero significance to me any different than any other number like 777 or 222.  666 is some kind of gentile superstition, isn't it?   Can't see the relevance.   Also I was not aware that anyone got to choose their social security number or their israeli ID number.     
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on May 14, 2012, 04:39:20 am
Farther into the video now.

She claims "Isaac Luria" was an agent of the Vatican sent in by Jesuits to mislead the Jewish community of tzfat and destroy their community.  Hmm, really.   Did they bring him about through an immaculate conception too?

"Luria was born in 1534 in Jerusalem[1] in what is now the Old Yishuv Court Museum[3] to an Ashkenazi father, Solomon, and a Sephardic mother.[6]"


Were his parents aware they gave birth to a "jesuit satanist" ?   ::)

"His uncle placed him under the best Jewish teachers, including the leading rabbinic scholar David ibn Zimra.[6] Luria showed himself a diligent student of rabbinical literature and under the guidance of another uncle, Rabbi Bezalel Ashkenazi (best known as the author of Shittah Mekubetzet), he became proficient in that branch of Jewish learning.[7]"

And were Rabbi David Ibn Zimra and Rabbi Ashkenazi also Jesuits secretly working for the Vatican?   Keep in mind that whole communities of Jews looked upon these men as the great scholars of that time.  They were not some unknowns that the vatican snuck in by boat and foisted upon the community.

Come on, what is this lady peddling here?   
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Harzel on May 14, 2012, 05:25:00 am
Like Tag-Mechir said, the woman is kookoo. You should see her blog and other videos. I think she is a celtic witch who married to an Israeli or something.
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on May 14, 2012, 11:26:34 pm
This lady's claims are outrageous.  I would suggest fraudulent, but I think she has deluded herself into believing her own claims have veracity.
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: muman613 on May 15, 2012, 12:52:53 am
This lady's claims are outrageous.  I would suggest fraudulent, but I think she has deluded herself into believing her own claims have veracity.

LOL  :::D
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: muman613 on May 16, 2012, 12:36:20 am
I actually suspect that Dan Ben Noah is a vatican plant at this point...

Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: muman613 on May 16, 2012, 12:57:21 am
You must beware of sharing the error of those who write amulets (kameot). Whatever you hear from them, or read in their works, especially in reference to the names which they form by combination, is utterly senseless; they call these combinations shemot (names) and believe that their pronunciation demands sanctification and purification, and that by using them they are enabled to work miracles. Rational persons ought not to listen to such men, nor in any way believe their assertions.

--Rambam, Guide for the Perplexed, Part 1, chapter 61.

Source: http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/gfp/gfp071.htm


If you just want to claim that Rambam is the ONE AND ONLY sage of Jewish wisdom so be it, that is your loss...

But the issue of Names of Hashem is a very large one, and we can discuss it if you like. The great sage Rashi has a lot to say on this issue..

http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/760970/jewish/The-Different-Names-of-Hashem.htm
http://www.torah.org/learning/parsha-insights/5759/kisisa.html
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: muman613 on May 16, 2012, 01:04:41 am
He wasn't the one and only, he was just correct on a metric tachat ton of issues.  Issues that should just be plain to see by reading the Bible, but since mystics don't seem to like doing that, we have to dig up quotes from rabbis stating the obvious.  Saadia Gaon also said that reincarnation is foolish if I'm not mistaking.  These rabbis and the kabbalists can't both be correct at the same time.

The Kabbalah sources come straight from the Tanach. Do you know anything which may be considered Kabbalah? If you look and read it it is clear that it is based on the Torah...


We have argued about Reincarnation before and I have produced the Tanach sources for such belief.

No Rabbi is the ONE and ONLY source. And Jewish belief is and always has been more concerned about this life than the afterlife.

Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: muman613 on May 16, 2012, 01:16:21 am
Regarding 'Amulets'... Im not sure if you are familiar with the command to place Muzzuzot on the door of the house. The Mezzuzah is believed to provide protection for the home. The Torah commands a Jew to place a muzzuzah on the doorpost of every door in a Jewish home.

Some people consider the mezzuzah to be an amulet and place them on chains which are worn around the neck. Some also hang them in the car....

Of course the Sages were consulted whether this was permissible or was forbidden.

Here is the Halacha according to www.dailyhalacha.com :


http://www.dailyhalacha.com/m/halacha.aspx?id=630

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Mezuzah- Is It Permissible To Wear A Mezuzah or Put A Mezuzah In A Car

Is it permissible to put a Mezuzah on a chain and wear it? Some people want to wear a Mezuzah for protection like an amulet, or to protect from Ayin Hara (evil eye.) Is this permissible?

Chacham Ovadia Yoseph asks this question in Halichot Olam, Helek 8, page 216, and Rav Moshe Feinstein also asked this question in Igrot Moshe, Y"D, Helek Bet, Siman 141. They both came out saying that it is permissible to put a Mezuzah on a chain and wear it. Of course it should be contained within a case. Again, they rule it is permissible.

The question was also asked if you can put a Mezuzah in your car. There are some people who put a Mezuzah hanging from the mirror in their car. According to the Halacha, it is NOT proper to hang a Mezuzah in a car. However, it is permissible and OK if you want to put a Mezuzah on a dashboard laying flat. There is a difference between hanging a Mezuzah on your body and hanging one on a car mirror or something like that. The Gemara talks about the sin of hanging Tefllin, Chas VeShalom, on a wall. Hanging Tefilin on a body would be different though as the practice of a King was accepted when he used to walk around with a Sefer Torah on his arm like an amulet. So wearing a Mezuzah for protection is permissible but hanging a Mezuzah in the car is not permissible. Chacham Ovadia Yoseph is lenient though on putting a Mezuzah in a car as long as you put it flat on the dash board, or glove compartment, but not dangling from the mirror.

http://www.dailyhalacha.com/HalachaClips/630.mp3
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: muman613 on May 16, 2012, 01:16:58 am
I have already answered these claims.  Kabbala does not come from the Tanach any more than the messiahship of Yushke or the advent of Muhammad come from the Tanach.  It is read into the Tanach by taking verses out of context.  I showed from the context how these verses that kabbalists claim are referring to reincarnation are actually talking about repentance.

In your mind... I listen to the Rabbis and sages of the generation before a Noachide.

Dan, do you consider yourself a Chacham already? How long have you studied the Jewish sources?

You know nothing, and attempt to act like you do know... I just hope that an impressionable Jew is not fooled into believing you know what you are talking about.
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: muman613 on May 16, 2012, 01:23:37 am
Dan,

As an expert on the Jewish understanding of Tanakh... Would you kindly tell us where in the Torah the laws concerning forbidden work is? I would like to test your understanding of Halacha...

Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: muman613 on May 16, 2012, 01:36:38 am
Do you mean where it forbids doing work itself (malacha) or where the 39 categories of work are individually forbidden?

Yes, where in the Tanakh does it discuss the Melachot? How do we know there are 39 categories of forbidden labor?

Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: muman613 on May 16, 2012, 03:27:03 am
Yes, the law comes from the proximity of the command to abstain from work on the Sabbath and the description of the work required to build the Mishkan.

My point of asking you this is because often the Rabbis of the Talmud, where the actual 39 Melachot are enumerated in the Talmud {Mesechet Shabbos 49b}, used a technique known as Talmudic Exegesis which derived the actual prohibitions from the text of the Chumash, specifically from Parashat Vayakhel.

This is explained from the site torahtots.com @  http://www.torahtots.com/torah/39melachot.htm

Quote
Melacha (plural "melachot").

1. Melacha refers to the 39 categories of activity that are forbidden on Shabbat. Melacha, is not "work." At least not the English definition of the word "work." You may not carry a needle out into the street on Shabbat, yet you may drag a heavy sofa across the room. So what Melacha is forbidden on Shabbat?

The 39 categories of activity that are forbidden on Shabbat, are all labors that have something in common - they are creative activities that exercise control over one's environment.

Specifically, the Talmud derives these 39 categories from the fact that the Torah juxtaposes the commandment to cease work on Shabbat in Shmot Parshat Vayakheil, with its detailed instructions on how to build the Mishkan*, and the preparation of its components, as described in Shmot / Exodus 31 and 35.
*[Mishkan - Tabernacle; the portable, temporary version of the Holy Temple that the Jews carried throughout the forty years in the desert into Eretz Yisroel (the land of Israel), until they built the Beit HaMikdash]

This is to teach us, explains the Talmud (Shabbat 49b), which activities constitute melacha: any creative act that was part of the mishkan's construction represents a category of work forbidden on Shabbat. These categories are forbidden by the Torah.

So my overall point is thus. Just because something is not explicitly spelled out in the Chumash, or even in the Tanach, doesn't mean that there are things which can be learned from the placement of certain words and phrases in proximity to others. As a matter of fact several Halachot are determined using this method.

A brief mention of several 'commandments' of the Torah which are not expressly spelled out in the Torah and are clearly explained in the Talmud include the commandments of TzitTzits, Mezzuzahs, Tefillin, and Shabbat rituals.

Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: muman613 on May 16, 2012, 03:31:28 am
Here this article from Aish.com discusses the technique I referred to called Rabbinic/Talmudic Exegesis...

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http://www.aish.com/sp/ph/Why_You_Dont_Understand_the_Bible.html

In fact, later Bible scholars such as Robert Alter and R. N. Whybray held that the text was more a unified whole than not. Alter in particular expressed remorse that these earlier critics did not take the classical Jewish approach more seriously. Why? Because to the Talmudic scholar, the Torah's repetitions, multiple Divine names, textual divergences and variations of language and style contain a wealth of information. To treat them as mere editorial mishaps is nothing less than tragic. It stands to reason that the Jewish sages of antiquity and the subsequent elucidators, with their assumption of Divine authorship (and thus a unified text), deep familiarity with the material and hundreds of years of crowd-sourced scholarship under their belts, were in the best position to interpret and comprehend these documents.

The text of the Torah is coded in multiple ways. Those with a trained eye intuitively sense in these passages an invitation to delve deeper. An extra or missing word or variant spelling, for example, act both as a marker and specialized tool to reveal information. For instance, through their numerical values, a variant spelling for the only round object that is mentioned twice in the Book of Kings is used to derive Pi. There are tens of thousands of these units of information. Each one is sourced in the Five Books of Moses or the later writings and the process of extracting them is known as the Oral Law. There are 13 rules that govern this exegesis and without them (and the classical commentaries) the book is exceedingly opaque.

Additionally, without the oral tradition to explain them, what are we to make of commandments such as "slaughter the animal in the way that I have shown you" with no hint as to how that is to be done? What does it mean to "guard the Sabbath and keep it holy?" There are penalties for not doing it right but no description as to how to do it. How exactly are parents supposed to be "honored," and in a practical sense what constitutes "loving one's fellow as oneself?"
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: muman613 on May 16, 2012, 03:47:52 am
But in the case of melachot it is very logical because the text clearly associates melachot with creative works.  The context supports this method that the Sages used.  Furthermore, these forbidden melachot were recognized as binding by the Sanhedrin, which was the official high authority on Jewish law which the Torah itself tells Jews to obey.  This has no connection to later developments such as kabbala which extrapolates itself back onto the Tanach in ways that don't make sense in the context of the passage, and the Zohar was never recognized as binding by an official Sanhedrin.  The fact that authentic Torah principles aren't always laid out explicitly in the Tanach is not an excuse to paint things into it that aren't there.

The fact is that Kabbalah and the Zohar are recognized by most Jews as authentic Judaism. This includes great sages and those who establish Halacha. I don't quite understand why you are on some crusade against authentic Jewish belief. I assume it is because you are a neophyte.

Study more and learn. I don't want to argue with you about this. If you would like to tell me exactly what it is you don't 'like' about Kabbalah and what you think it says which is against the Torah? I just don't understand where you are coming from. Again it has to be that you don't really know what you are talking about.
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Harzel on May 16, 2012, 04:29:54 am
Dan, when you suggest preposterous things like the "vatican plant" conspiracy theory, it only makes you a promoter of a fantasy fraud, which is per your own testimony the sort of things you want to weed out.

HaRambam didn't suggested made up fantasies to rule out kabbalah so take an example from him.
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: muman613 on May 16, 2012, 04:31:34 am
The fact that something is recognized by most Jews doesn't mean it's authentic Judaism.  The determining factor that makes something binding on all Jews is the Sanhedrin recognizing it.  As in the days of Elijah, the majority of people were going after evil but only Elijah and his immediate followers did not bow to Baal.  As Rabbi Kahane said, in every generation there are always a few who understand--always understand, even if you are among the few.  The Zohar, as modern rabbis are pointing out more and more (such as Rabbi Qafih and Rabbi Bar-Hayim), is a forgery.  It was forged by Moshe De Leon who apparently could not sell it if it had his own name on it.

Dan,

Kabbalah consists of more than just Zohar. And it is very impossible, and improbable, that just the publication of the Zohar would change the view of Judaism. The Rabbis had been learning and teaching Kabbalah for long before the publication of the Zohar and this is why it was accepted.

You are entitled to your opinion but I don't think your view will succeed. The Jewish faith has lived because of the enlightenment which is contained in the secrets of the Torah.

I am certainly aware of the theories about the sources for Zohar and while there may be issues concerning it, the basic stories of Zohar are consistent with the Kabbalah.

Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: muman613 on May 16, 2012, 04:34:48 am
I'm not promoting it unless I say it is true.  This I don't know whether it is true or not but I've already weeded out Isaac Luria regardless of whether he's a Vatican plant or not based on other principles.

Oh yes, you 'weeded out' Isaac Luria.... Lol!
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Harzel on May 16, 2012, 04:49:23 am
Rabbi Luria was a talmid chacham and he was respected by rabbis who rejected his theory. It's one thing to reject a theory, and another thing to reject the person and conduct in character assassination.
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Tag-MehirTzedek on May 16, 2012, 09:52:56 am
Regarding 'Amulets'... Im not sure if you are familiar with the command to place Muzzuzot on the door of the house. The Mezzuzah is believed to provide protection for the home. The Torah commands a Jew to place a muzzuzah on the doorpost of every door in a Jewish home.

 WRONG! This is precisly the point and the dangers of such thinking.

 I suggest anyone interested to read this  "Mezuzah: Protective Amulet or Religious Symbol? "

 http://www.mesora.org/mezuza-gordon.pdf
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: muman613 on May 16, 2012, 12:30:33 pm
WRONG! This is precisly the point and the dangers of such thinking.

 I suggest anyone interested to read this  "Mezuzah: Protective Amulet or Religious Symbol? "

 http://www.mesora.org/mezuza-gordon.pdf


Tag,

The vast majority of Sages, including the sages of the Talmud, disagree with your opinion.

The protective power of a muzuzah is well known. There are great stories about how Mezuzahs have protected Jewish homes. I am beginning to suspect that your real problem is not with Kabbalah but with the Talmud.



http://www.beingjewish.com/mitzvos/mezuzah.html

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The Talmud says that a proper Mezuzah offers protection of the home. A king once gave a Rabbi a diamond as a present, so the Rabbi gave the king a Mezuzah as a present. the king did not know what it was, and got insulted. The Rabbi explained, I will have to hire guards to protect my home because of the the gift you gave me, but the gift I gave you will protect your home!

Keeping the Commandments of the Torah always brings blessings, and the Talmud says that keeping the Commandment of Mezuzah brings long life and is a protection for the home. Of course, the holier a home is kept, the more the protection. Therefore we should always be careful of what we bring into our homes. When we are prepared to carry something into our home, whether it be food to eat, or food for thought (books, magazines, etc.), we should stop and consider, whether or not it will shame the Mezuzah to have that carried past it into the home. If we do that, and protect our homes from spiritual invasion, we can be assured that our homes will always be protected from physical invasion.


Here is a good explanation of the sources for the belief that Mezuzah protects the home. These sources do not include Kabbalistic sources... Although the site does explain the Kabbalistic reasons also...

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/310889/jewish/The-Protective-Power-of-Mezuzah.htm

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The Protective Power of Mezuzah

By Alexander Poltorak

The L-rd is thy keeper; the L‑rd is thy shade upon thy right hand

Psalms CXXI, 5

In the Bible

The word “mezuzah” appears for the first time in the Bible in the account of the Exodus from Egypt. Before the last plague smiting the Egyptian firstborn, the Almighty forewarned the Jewish people to mark their doorposts with the blood of the sacrificial lamb so that the forces of destruction would pass over their houses. The Torah says:

And they shall take of the blood and they shall put it on the two mezuzoth (doorposts) and on the lintel... For the Lord will pass through to smite the Egyptians, and when He seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two doorposts, the Lord will pass over the door, and He will not allow the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite [you]. (Exodus 12:7, 23)

This is why the Holiday of the Exodus is called Passover. The Mechilta 1 (as well as the Zohar) states that these verses are the source of the concept of mezuzah:

Now consider: The blood of the Passover sacrifice was but of little weight, for it was required but once, not for all generations, and by night only, not by day; yet He would ‘not allow the destroyer... to strike you.’ How much more will He not permit the destroyer into the house which bears a mezuzah, which is of greater weight, seeing that the Divine Name is repeated there ten times, it is there by day and night, and it is a law for all generations.

We see in this biblical account and the above commentary the direct relationship between the mitzvah of mezuzah and Divine protection. A mezuzah affixed to the doorpost as commanded by G-d at Sinai still has the power to “not allow the destroyer to come into your houses to smite you”. Indeed, immediately after the commandment of mezuzah, the Torah continues

... so that your days may be multiplied, and the days of your children... (Deuteronomy XI, 21)

This verse is the biblical source of the firm belief in the power of the mezuzah to protect from harm and to prolong one’s life.

Furthermore, the Torah lays down the law that:

a man that hath built a new house and hath not dedicated it, let him go and return to his house lest he die in battle... (Deuteronomy (XX, 5).

The Torah fears for the life of a soldier who has not yet affixed a mezuzah to his house and is thus deprived of its protection.

The Bible also alludes to the protective power of mezuzah in yet another place:

It is written, “And the waters were a wall to them on their right hand and on their left.” (Exodus XIV, 29). The mezuzah forms a wall to Israel’s right, and the tefillin to their left.

It further states:

The Eternal is your guardian; the Eternal is your shade upon the right hand. (Psalms 121:5).

In the Talmud

The mezuzah helps us remember that the true owner of our house is the Master of the Universe, and we, along with our families and belongings, are merely guests in His world. Thus, it is written:

If a man affixes a mezuzah, did I not give him the house?

As a host par excellence, He stands outside the house and guards His guests and their belongings.

Let us turn again to the Talmudic narrative about the Parthian King Ardavan and Yehudah HaNasi (see The Knowledge of G-d [2nd paragraph]). As the narrative continues, the King’s daughter later fell ill (in the words of the Talmud she was possessed by a demon). The court’s physicians failed to relieve her condition. Ardavan, remembering the words of the Jewish sage, ordered that the mezuzah be affixed to the doorpost of the princess’s room, whereupon she was immediately cured.

This and the following talmudic aggadah (narrative) serve as evidence that the belief in the protective powers of mezuzah is not a superstition or an invention of medieval kabbalists, as some critics would have us believe, but is deeply rooted in the Talmudic and Rabbinical Judaism.

A well-known story from the Talmud involves a famous ger (proselyte, convert), Onkelos2 the son of Kalonymos, a nephew of the Roman Emperor Titus:

When Titus, outraged by the conversion of his nephew to Judaism, sent his advisors to try to persuade him to return to the Roman religion, Onkelos was so convincing in his argument that all of the Emperor’s envoys became proselytes themselves. Caesar then sent legionnaires to arrest Onkelos and instructed them not to engage in any conversation with his nephew. When the legionnaires escorted Onkelos out of his home, he smiled and placed his hand on the mezuzah. Observing the bewildered soldiers, Onkelos explained that a mortal king has servants standing outside his house on guard. The King of Kings, however, is Himself guarding His servants outside their homes. As King David sang in his Psalms: “G‑d shall guard thy going out and thy coming in from now and forevermore.” (Psalms CXXI, 8). These words made such a profound impression on the legionnaires that they too converted to Judaism.

The Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem M. Schneerson, points out the instant effect the mezuzah had on the Roman soldiers. The Rebbe explains that this quality is unique to mezuzah. It is said that tefillin have the power to induce fear in an enemy, but only the mezuzah can affect the soldiers of an evil empire instantaneously to become converts to Judaism – the antithesis of evil. This ability to have a profound and immediate effect on people is unique to mezuzah.

Another profound testimony to the protective power of the mezuzah is found in the Talmudic discussion of the laws pertaining to an Idol-Worshipping city, Ir HaNidachath. Torah law enjoins the Sanhedrin, the Supreme Court, to condemn such a town, with all its inhabitants and their belongings to total annihilation:

...Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein... (Deuteronomy XIII, 16)3

However, the Sages of the Talmud teach:

No city containing even a single mezuzah can be condemned.

One mezuzah can save the entire idolatrous city from destruction!

An interesting illustration of the mezuzah’s power to protect one’s life is found in the Talmudic discussion wherein a rabbi asks if women are obligated by the mitzvah of mezuzah, and another rabbi answers with a rhetorical question:

Men have to live; do not women have to live as well?!

In the Law and Classical Rabbinical Writings

The Biblical notion of the protective powers of the mezuzah is reiterated in the Mishnah and elaborated on in the Talmud. It is further strengthened and elevated to Jewish law, Halakhah, in the Shulchan Arukh 4:

He who is careful and particular in the observance of mezuzah – his days and the days of his children will be lengthened.

Furthermore, the Code of Jewish Law rules that the mezuzah, aside from its reward of longevity for oneself and one’s children stated in the Bible, has the effect of guarding the house and its inhabitants from any harm. The Beth Yosef 5 calls this an open miracle.

Rabbeinu Bachya writes:

To impart in our hearts the principle that Divine protection pervades Israel at all times, day and night, the Torah has commanded us to place the mezuzah at the entrance of our homes. We will thus be cognizant of this principle of Divine protection whenever we enter a home, and we will be mindful that this protection is constantly with us. Even at night, His protection surrounds our house and protects us while we sleep.

He writes further:

G-d is called “The Guardian of Israel,” as it is said, “Behold, He that guards Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps.” (Psalms 121:4). Since G‑d is supreme above all and rules over the six ends [of the universe, i.e., above, below, east, west, north, and south], the psalmist mentioned the expression ‘guarding’ six times in that psalm.6

Ibn Ezra writes:

In time of trouble, G‑d saves those who serve Him out of fear. However, G‑d protects those who serve Him out of love, from encountering trouble.

Mezuzah, a sign of eternal love between Israel and the Creator, therefore prevents any trouble from entering a Jewish home.

The Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem M. Schneerson, explains that, unlike other mitzvoth, such as honoring one’s parents, for which the Torah promises longevity, the protection afforded by the mezuzah is not a reward for the mitzvah but rather an immediate and essential result of its observance, as the Sages teach us that:

The very purpose of mezuzah is the protection of the house and its inhabitants.
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Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: muman613 on May 16, 2012, 12:32:38 pm
Here is a good discussion of the protective power of the mezuzah...

http://www.shortvort.com/eikev/10767-the-protection-of-the-mitzvah-of-mezuzah

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About the mitzvah of mezuzah, which is found in this week's Torah portion, Eikev, the Talmud relates that Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi once sent a mezuzah as a gift to Artaban, king of Persia, explaining that the small scroll would protect him from harm.
At first glance, Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi's gesture seems odd. The commandment to affix a mezuzah upon one's doorposts was given only to the Jewish nation. A non-Jewish king, therefore, would not be fulfilling a religious precept by possessing a mezuzah. As such, he would also be ineligible for any reward resulting from the performance of a mitzvah. Why then did Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi promise the gentile king that the mezuzah would guard and protect him?

A similar question may also be asked about the common practice, dating back to the time of the Mishnah, of inserting a mezuzah scroll into one's walking stick, also done for the sake of the protection it afforded. A walking stick is certainly not included in the commandment of mezuzah. If there is no commandment, there is certainly no reward. How, then, did the mezuzah afford protection?

A distinction must be made between the reward a person receives for performing a mitzvah and the intrinsic attribute of the mitzvah itself. When a person obeys G-d's command by fulfilling a mitzvah, the reward he earns is a separate and distinct entity, additional to the essential nature of the mitzvah. For example, the Torah states that the reward for the mitzvah of mezuzah is long life: "That your days be increased and the days of your children."
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: muman613 on May 16, 2012, 12:35:10 pm
http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-mitzvos-mezuzah.htm

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Our feeling of security should come from the recognition that we have a protector in heaven, rather than relying entirely on some mechanical device, devised by man. The Ribbono Shel Olam watches over our homes if we do His will. The mezuzah attached to our doorpost is our protection. It is a direct link to the "Central System". Certain letters are inscribed on the outside of this mezuzah scroll which say, among other things, that through this mezuzah scroll the house is protected. However, the house is only protected if the mezuzah "system" is intact; if it is made according to the specifications under which it is intended to work. One frayed letter may invalidate the whole protection system, in which case, the mezuzah is completely useless. One has not performed the mitzvah which he or she thought they were fulfilling at the time the mezuzah scroll was attached to the doorpost and thereafter, and the blessing that we say when affixing the mezuzah was recited in vain.

http://dafyomi.co.il/yoma/insites/yo-dt-011.htm

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1) THE "MITZVAH" TO PLACE A MEZUZAH ON CITY GATES
QUESTION: The Gemara says that the word "bi'She'arecha" (Devarim 6:9) teaches that a Mezuzah must be placed even on the gates of provinces (Medinos) and cities (Ayaros). The Beraisa, when it mentions that such gates require a Mezuzah, says, "Yesh ba'Hem Chovas Mitzvah la'Makom" -- "they have the obligation of the Mitzvah for the Omnipresent."

The Beraisa's expression is unusually elaborate. Why does the Beraisa not say simply that these gates are "obligated to have a Mezuzah" ("Chayavin b'Mezuzah")?

ANSWER: The SI'ACH YITZCHAK answers that the Gemara teaches that the Mezuzah arouses Divine protection for Jewish homes and their inhabitants (Avodah Zarah 11a). Similarly, the Gemara later (11b) says that fulfillment of the Mitzvah of Mezuzah brings long life. (Tosfos in Menachos (44a) writes that for this reason even a rented home requires a Mezuzah; see Insights to Yoma 11:4.)

Since the Mezuzah affords Divine protection, one might have thought that a Mezuzah is necessary on the door of one's residence but not on the gates of the city. Since one's home is already protected because of the Mezuzah affixed to its door, there is no need to affix a Mezuzah to the gates of the city. The Beraisa therefore teaches that while it is true that the city gates do not need a Mezuzah for the sake of protection, they still need a Mezuzah because of Hashem's Mitzvah -- "Chovas Mitzvah la'Makom."
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: muman613 on May 16, 2012, 12:40:07 pm
Three more on this topic, then Im off to work...



http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/orgs/stam/guide2n.htm

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1. So precious is the Mitzvah of Mezuzah that the Torah distinguishes it from other Mitzvos in promising "Your days and the days of your children will be prolonged" (Deuteronomy 11:21). · For this very reason women, like men, are obligated in this Mitzvah. As the Talmud states, "Do only men require life? Do women not require life?" (Kiddushin 34a). . It is a Mitzvah that brings divine protection to the home (Tur Yoreh De'ah 285). The Talmud, Midrash, Zohar and codes are replete with references stressing the protection afforded by the Mitzvah of Mezuzah.


Here the article explains that the Mezuzah itself is not what provides the protection, but by observing the commandment so that it brings protection.

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http://ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/4006

If someone rents a home it is his obligation to put mezuzot on his doorposts and not the obligation of the landlord.

Rashi cites as the source for this the gemara in Mesechta Menachot (34a) which interprets the word beitcha (your home) in the passage about mezuzah as biyatcha (your entry). This indicates that the one who enters and exits the home – the tenant – is responsible for affixing mezuzot.

The popular concept that the reason for the mezuzah is protection for residents of the home has a source in the story of the convert Onkeles (Mesechta Avodah Zarah 11a). When the Roman emperor sent troops to fetch him he succeeded in convincing them to convert as well by pointing out that in contrast to a mortal king whose servants stand outside his palace to protect him, the mezuzah represents G-d posted in the doorway to protect the Jews inside.

Although fulfillment of the mitzvah of mezuzah provides protection, as does the fulfillment of any mitzvah, it is wrong to assume that this is the basic reason for this mitzvah. Rambam (Laws of Tefillin 5:4) sharply criticizes those who view the mezuzah as some sort of protective amulet rather than a "great mitzvah reinforcing our belief in the Oneness of G-d, our love for Him and our service to Him."

Bava Metzia 101b


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http://www.torahtots.com/parsha/devarim/vaetcha3.htm

Q. What is the meaning of the word Mezuza?

A. "Mezuza" means "door post" for the Mezuza is placed on the doorpost. In olden days, an awl or other tool was used to gouge out a trough in the doorpost of the entryway to one's house. The scroll was inserted into the gouged-out space and plastered over. Today, it is customary to encase the Mezuza scroll in a decorative case.

In addition, the Hebrew word "Mezuzot," found in this Parsha, is written: mem, zayen, zayen, vav, tav. If we rearrange the letters we can spell the two words, "zaz mavet" which means "pushing away death."

Thus, a kosher Mezuza acts as protection even to the extent of saving from death! In Tehillim (Psalms) Dovid Hamelech (King David) says, "Hashem shall protect your exit and your entry from now and forever." Our Sages say that this applies to the Mezuza. It acts as a shield and protects people, not only when they are inside the home but also when they go out.

In time, the letters on a Mezuza may fade or crack, which renders the Mezuza not kosher. Thus, it must be checked at least twice in seven years.

Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: edu on May 16, 2012, 02:09:20 pm
Rambam complains against those who relate  to the Mezuza as an amulet instead of getting the spiritual ideas connected to the mezuza, (unity of G-d, love and service of G-d) see Mishna Torah, Hilchot Tefillin Mezuza and Sefer Torah 5:7

But even Rambam allows (Hilchot Shabbat 19:14) for people to go out on Shabbat with an Amulet   that was made by an expert with a proven record of healing 3 people or made by an expert, who is known to have cured 3 people with his amulet.

If you really want to continue the argument, Dan, maybe you can contend, that the Amulet worked just as a placebo. Halacha does recognize, that making someone more confident that he will be cured, increases the likelihood of a healthy outcome.
However, at the very least you will have to concede, that even Rambam holds that not all amulets are bad.

If someone can provide some additional evidence, regarding Rambam's attitude towards amulets, namely, do they help beyond placebo value, I would be interested in looking at it.
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Tag-MehirTzedek on May 16, 2012, 02:34:37 pm

Tag,

The vast majority of Sages, including the sages of the Talmud, disagree with your opinion.

The protective power of a muzuzah is well known. There are great stories about how Mezuzahs have protected Jewish homes. I am beginning to suspect that your real problem is not with Kabbalah but with the Talmud.


 Utter non-sense. what I posted is a link to an essay. The contents come straight from the writings of the sages including the Talmudh. Now your accusing me of being against the Talmudh? Why? Just because I disagree with you?
  I went quickly by your posts here and from what I have seen non bring substantial proof. Where are the page numbers and quotes from the Talmudh? I have seen this before for example the first one took a story from the Talmudh and then used it as a presumtion that the author had. It is not "proof" at all.
 
 What well known "protective power" are you talking about? We do Mitzwoth because G-D commanded them. Things like the Mezuza is a Mitzwah and the purpose is to remind us of G-D and the words it contains their in (as in the Shema). And NOT as some lucky charm as presented by some in these last generations. If your putting up a Mezuzza presumably for it "protecting your home" and not for the it being a Mitzwah and something to remind one of G-D's presence then its more of you serving yourself instead of serving G-D properly. Besides that I would understand that perhaps some Rabbis (who know the truth) would and o keep silent since at least let the ignorants think this way at first, at least they will fulfill the Mitzwah (albeit not with correct intentions) and then maybe come to the correct intentions and ways.
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Tag-MehirTzedek on May 16, 2012, 02:50:01 pm
  I'll give one example that this type of thinking produces. Their are people who for example have problems at home. Shalom Bayit issues. Instead of working on themselves as the Torah and the sages say to do they almost blame it on the Mezuzoth. Anything but them. Their are people who actually believe that checking the Mezuzot where they can possibly be not kosher (with an error) is the cause of their problems at home. The Torah says otherwise. No, not having a non-kosher Mezuzah wont cause marriage problems, BUT having a temper, or not being kind to your spouse probably will.
  By the way this is also similar to what I heard someone once say- that the terrorism in Israel is caused because of "a lack of modesty". of-course we are against women dressing improperly, BUT each thing, Mitzwah or Avera has its own affects. Their is absolutly no connection. Its the irrationality of some to make such rediculous claims thats actually stopping the creation and upholding of a true Torah based, safe and prosperous Jewish society. Rav Kahane ZTL HYD did say why their was and is terrorism- its simple- we have Arab Nazis in the land who wish for our destruction. The Torah says to drive them out of the land. Thats the real, rational connection as is seen.  BUT NOooo, for some this can't be the reason. It is too simple. They would rather be told that its the immodest lady on the street which is the cause of their problems. Or the Mezuza anyone but themselves.
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: muman613 on May 16, 2012, 02:55:46 pm
Utter non-sense. what I posted is a link to an essay. The contents come straight from the writings of the sages including the Talmudh. Now your accusing me of being against the Talmudh? Why? Just because I disagree with you?
  I went quickly by your posts here and from what I have seen non bring substantial proof. Where are the page numbers and quotes from the Talmudh? I have seen this before for example the first one took a story from the Talmudh and then used it as a presumtion that the author had. It is not "proof" at all.
 
 What well known "protective power" are you talking about? We do Mitzwoth because G-D commanded them. Things like the Mezuza is a Mitzwah and the purpose is to remind us of G-D and the words it contains their in (as in the Shema). And NOT as some lucky charm as presented by some in these last generations. If your putting up a Mezuzza presumably for it "protecting your home" and not for the it being a Mitzwah and something to remind one of G-D's presence then its more of you serving yourself instead of serving G-D properly. Besides that I would understand that perhaps some Rabbis (who know the truth) would and o keep silent since at least let the ignorants think this way at first, at least they will fulfill the Mitzwah (albeit not with correct intentions) and then maybe come to the correct intentions and ways.

Tag,


All the quotes in that Chabad article on the protective power of the Mezuzah have footnotes...

Here are the footnotes to the article:

FOOTNOTES
1.   Mechilta is a halachic Midrash on Exodus – collection of exegetical interpretations, verse by verse, of the laws found in the text of Exodus. Mechilta de-Rabbi Ishmael, attributed to the Tanna R. Ishmael, was compiled in Eretz Israel, c. IV century C.E. Mechilta de-Rabbi Shimon ben Yochai was compiled by the school of the Tanna Rabbi Shimon ben Yochai in Eretz Israel in the gaonic period, c. V century C.E.
2.   Onkelos was the author of the famous translation of the Torah into the Aramaic language that is included in most standard editions of the Torah.
3.   There is a discussion in the Talmud (Sanhedrin 71a) whether such a verdict has ever been issued (as was the opinion of Rabbi Jonathan), or it is a purely theoretical concept meant to deter such an occurrence (as taught by Rabbi Eliezer).
4.   Shulchan Aruch – “the Prepared Table”, the Code of law written by Joseph Caro (1488-1575) which is a synopsis, concise and without sources, of the author’s Beth Yosef, a commentary on the earlier halachic work Arbaah Turim of Jacob ben Asher (1269-1340). It is accepted as the Code of Law and the main reference source for halachic rulings in Jewish life.
5.   Beth Yosef, magnum opus on the development of Jewish Law, Halachah. Written by Rabbi Joseph Caro (1488-1575) over the 20-year period 1522-1542 and first published in a 1555 commentary on the Code Arbaah Turim of Rabbi Jacob ben Asher (1270-1340). Shulchan Aruch, a digest of Beth Yosef written by its author, became the Code of Jewish Law par excellence, accepted throughout the Jewish world.
6.   Psalm 121. Verse 3: He that guardeth thee will not slumber; Verse 4: He that guardeth Israel; Verse 5: The Eternal is thy guardian; Verse 7: The Eternal shall guard thee from all evil; He shall guard thy soul; Verse 8: The Eternal shall guard thy going out.
7.   Recanati, Menachem ben Benjamin (XIII) Italian kabbalist, author of Ta’amei ha-Mitzvoth, a mystical explanation on the Commandments. Also authored commentary on the Bible, Perush, Perush ha-Tefiloth and other works.
8.   The name Shad-dai, according to Rav Saadia Gaon, should be translated as the Almighty or the Omnipotent, as in the verse: “I appeared to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as G‑d Almighty (E-l Shad-dai)” (Exodus 6:3). In the vernacular this name is pronounced as Shakkai.
9.   Mordekhai ben Hillel ha-Cohen (c. 1240 - 1298), German Rabbinic authority, author of famous Talmudic compendium Mordekhai.
10.   Rabbi Meir ben Baruch of Rothenburg, the Maharam (c. 1215 - 1293), famous German tosafist, rabbi, halachic authority and community leader. Author of commentaries to 18 tractates of Talmud, many halachic works and liturgical poetry.
11.   Rabbi Moses Cordovero, the Ramak (1522 - 1570), one of the leading Kabbalist of Safed, teacher of Rabbi Isaac Luria, the Ari-zal. In his principal books Pardes Rimonim and Elimah Rabbati, he systematized the pre-Lurianic Kabbalah. Also wrote commentaries on the books of Zohar, kabbalistic-ethical treatise Tomer Devorah and others.
12.   Rabbi Judah Loewe (Low, Liwa, Loeb) ben Betzalel (c. 1525-1609), the famous Maharal of Prague. Great scholar, Talmudic authority, mystic, chief rabbi of Prague, mathematician. A prolific writer, he authored many books, among them Tifereth Yisrael, Netzach Yisrael and Gevurath Hashem. Popularly known as the creator of the Golem, the android, an artificial man created by Kabbalistic divinations.
13.   Rabbi Ephraim Solomon ben Aharon Luntschitz (1550 – 1619) rabbi, preacher and biblical commentator, author of Keli Yakar, a popular homiletic commentary on Pentateuch.
14.   Saints
15.   Rabbi Eliezer b. Samuel of Metz (c. 1115 - c. 1198). Tosafist and Rabbinic authority, author of Sefer Yere’im, a halachic exposition of the 613 commandments, and commentaries on several tractates of Talmud.
16.   According to Jewish Law, “Halachah”, as it is defined in the Mishnah and Talmud and further delineated in the rabbinical responsa.
17.   Rabbi Isaac b. Solomon Ashkenazi Luria (the Ari-zal - the holy lion, G‑dly Rabbi Isaac, o.b.m.) (1534 - 1572), preeminent Kabbalist of Safed. He revealed a systematic teaching of Kabbalah explaining the Zohar in a coherent way. He also taught meditative Kabbalah (unifications and intentions in prayer) and practical Kabbalah (by way of the mystical communion with the souls of Tzadikim). He laid the foundation for the future development of Kabbalah and Chasidism.
18.   Rabbi Chayim b. Joseph Vital (1543 - 1620), a great Kabbalist, the main disciple of the Ari-zal, wrote Eitz Chayim (Tree of Life), the principal book of Lurianic Kabbalah, as well as most of the other books collectively called Kithvei haAri-zal (The Writing of the Ari-zal).
19.   Incidentally, this number, 911, is the sum of the 713 letters, 170 words and 22 lines in the mezuzah together with 6 letters of the Hebrew word mezuzoth, when spelled Mem, Zayin, Vav, Zayin, Vav, Tav as in Deut. XI, 20.
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: muman613 on May 16, 2012, 03:01:46 pm
  I'll give one example that this type of thinking produces. Their are people who for example have problems at home. Shalom Bayit issues. Instead of working on themselves as the Torah and the sages say to do they almost blame it on the Mezuzoth. Anything but them. Their are people who actually believe that checking the Mezuzot where they can possibly be not kosher (with an error) is the cause of their problems at home. The Torah says otherwise. No, not having a non-kosher Mezuzah wont cause marriage problems, BUT having a temper, or not being kind to your spouse probably will.
  By the way this is also similar to what I heard someone once say- that the terrorism in Israel is caused because of "a lack of modesty". of-course we are against women dressing improperly, BUT each thing, Mitzwah or Avera has its own affects. Their is absolutly no connection. Its the irrationality of some to make such rediculous claims thats actually stopping the creation and upholding of a true Torah based, safe and prosperous Jewish society. Rav Kahane ZTL HYD did say why their was and is terrorism- its simple- we have Arab Nazis in the land who wish for our destruction. The Torah says to drive them out of the land. Thats the real, rational connection as is seen.  BUT NOooo, for some this can't be the reason. It is too simple. They would rather be told that its the immodest lady on the street which is the cause of their problems. Or the Mezuza anyone but themselves.

The protection of the mezuzah comes because it increases the awareness of Hashem in the world. Do you wear TzitTzits? Do you know why you wear them? It is so that we can see them, and remember all the 613 commandments of the Torah.

You give examples of people blaming the mezuzah. This has nothing to do with whether or not there is protection from harm because of keeping the commandments of Mezuzah. I have posted several good pieces which explains how the protection from evil occurs because of the mezuzah. People kiss the mezuzah upon entering and leaving the home, and thus through this ritual act remember that this home is protected.

And I do believe that the Talmud and Mishnah suggest that there is protection on Jewish homes by the Mezuzah.
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Tag-MehirTzedek on May 16, 2012, 03:28:27 pm
The protection of the mezuzah comes because it increases the awareness of Hashem in the world. Do you wear TzitTzits? Do you know why you wear them? It is so that we can see them, and remember all the 613 commandments of the Torah.

People kiss the mezuzah upon entering and leaving the home, and thus through this ritual act remember that this home is protected.


 You just flipped what I said and are now saying the same thing (well partly).
 - Again we kiss the Mezuza not to remember that the home is protected, but to remember G-D, His commandments and that the home should be a place of G-D and fit for G-D's "Presence" soo to speak to dwell within the house.
 Also are you telling me that their aren't homes which have Mezuzoth that don't have fires? Or have robberies? I had my home robbed before and our Mezuzot are kosher. (I just brought my house as an example soo perhaps you can't then say that perhaps their Mezuzot were not kosher, but their are plenty of Jewish homes that had this as well). If this is a protection then what happened? Did the powers you ascribe to the Mezuza go on strike at the time or something?
 Another similar thing is by Channukah with the candles. Some people (and thank g-D some are speaking out about this) said and say that don't worry, your doing a Mitzwah nothing bad can happen. BUT bad things DID happen and its not G-D to blame for this but human carelessness. Their were fires and unfortunatly people including children have died because of such attitudes.
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: muman613 on May 16, 2012, 03:37:58 pm

 You just flipped what I said and are now saying the same thing (well partly).
 - Again we kiss the Mezuza not to remember that the home is protected, but to remember G-D, His commandments and that the home should be a place of G-D and fit for G-D's "Presence" soo to speak to dwell within the house.
 Also are you telling me that their aren't homes which have Mezuzoth that don't have fires? Or have robberies? I had my home robbed before and our Mezuzot are kosher. (I just brought my house as an example soo perhaps you can't then say that perhaps their Mezuzot were not kosher, but their are plenty of Jewish homes that had this as well). If this is a protection then what happened? Did the powers you ascribe to the Mezuza go on strike at the time or something?
 Another similar thing is by Channukah with the candles. Some people (and thank g-D some are speaking out about this) said and say that don't worry, your doing a Mitzwah nothing bad can happen. BUT bad things DID happen and its not G-D to blame for this but human carelessness. Their were fires and unfortunatly people including children have died because of such attitudes.

No, I have brought several sources which touched on the way that the protection is provided. I will not requote them but look at the sections I quoted and see that the point is fulfilling the commandment, and doing so in a way which we can relate to by seeing or feeling {as in touching and kissing the mezuzah, or seeing the fringes of the tzittzits}.

And certainly doing foolish things will cause catstrophe, no mezuzah will prevent fires or other things. But basically keeping the mitzvot in this way does have protective attributes.


Here is a link with stories about how the Mezuzah acted to protect Jews:
http://www.campsci.com/mezuzah/mzpart1.htm

And one more explanation of Mezuzah :

http://www.campsci.com/mezuzah/#tohgm

Quote
BUT FIRST A SHORT INTRODUCTION

Let's take a look into the Mechilta in Parshas Bo on the posuk : v'lo yuvo.. , and I translate (briefly):  If the blood that was put on one's doorpost in Egypt had the power to keep the mashchis out of the house, how much more so is the power of the Mezuzah which has the name of Hashem mentioned ten times.

Clearly, the Mechilta states that a Mezuzah carries with it the power of protection against outside invaders.

Now let's take a look into the Gemarah Mesechta Menachos 33:

"It is a mitzvah to put the Mezuzah within a tefach (4 inches) of the street so that the entirety of the house will be watched..(The entire house is protected from dangers - Rashi.)

"Said Rabbi Hanina: Come see, the ways of the Holy One, Blessed Be He, are not the way of man. The way of man is that the king sits inside while his servants protect him on the outside; but the ways of Hashem are not thu; His servants sit inside while He guards them outside, as it is written: `G-d is your Protector, G-d is the Savior of your right arm, G-d will watch your comings and goings from now and forevermore".

Here, again, we clearly see that a Mezuzah has the great power of protection.

Here's another amazing Gemarah in Mesechta Shabbos 32:

"For the sin of not honoring the Mezuzah, a man's son and daughters die when they are young, as it is written, `And you shall write them for Mezuzos upon your house.' And afterwards it is written `So that your days may be lengthened" etc.

From here we see that negligence in the mitzvah of Mezuzah can be the cause for terrible catastrophes chas v'sholom. On the other hand, one who is very careful in this mitzvah is assured of a long life, as it says lima'an yirbu yimaychem...

The Yerushalmi in Mesechta Pe'ah (Perek 1) tells an interesting story: Artvon (who was the king of Persia) sent R' Yehuda HaNasi a most expensive stone with the request that he send him back something of equal value. Whereby, R' Yehuda HaNasi wrote a Mezuzah and sent it to him in return. When Artvon received the Mezuzah he was perplexed, and said, "I sent you something of great value, and you send me a cheap piece of parchment in return." R' Yehuda HaNasi answered, "You sent me something for which I will have to hire a watchman to protect it, whereby I sent you something that will offer you protection."
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Tag-MehirTzedek on May 16, 2012, 03:58:37 pm

And certainly doing foolish things will cause catstrophe, no mezuzah will prevent fires or other things. But basically keeping the mitzvot in this way does have protective attributes.


Here is a link with stories about how the Mezuzah acted to protect Jews:
http://www.campsci.com/mezuzah/mzpart1.htm

 You are saying contradictory things.
 And I briefed that site here is one story

One night, the father went to his Rebbe and poured out his heart. It was filled with fear and worry. The Rebbe advised him to have his Mezuzos checked at once. The very next day he took off all his Mezuzos and brought them to an expert sofer. This is the Mezuzah that was on his little Yossi's door.
Yossi's father immediately ran to buy a good Mezuzah and put it on the door. Imagine his great joy, when two days later his son began to talk. Just a coincidence, you say?


 Perhaps not a coincidence, but something entirely made up?

 Or this one HIS HOUSE WAS ROBBED TWICE

When Mr. L.W.'s house was robbed for the second time he decided to have his Mezuzos checked. The Mezuza he had affixed to his front door appears below. A quick glance at it and you will see at once why it offered no protection.


When I told this story to Rabbi David Shiinborsky, an expert sofer himself, he was quick to tell me that the very same thing happened to him. His story goes as follows:

"When I rented my second-floor office on 13th Avenue and 48th St. I had a robbery the very first Shabbos, I immediately put in an alarm system, gates on the windows and, of course - being a sofer -I also checked the Mezuzos but found nothing wrong. The previous owners told me that they had also had a series of robberies at the store. Unfortunately, the next week my office was broken into again, and this time the thieves even broke the alarm box. I then realized that in my haste to check the Mezuzos I had forgotten to check the very outside door. Sure enough, when I now checked that one I found it was posul. I replaced it at once. Boruch Hashem, more than a year has passed, and we've had no more break-ins." Here is the Mezuzah.




- Will you tell me that houses get robbed because the Mezuzot are passul? Even if this story did happen what about the houses that have kosher Mezuzot and get robbed? Perhaps statistically you can get such stories to take place, but you can't ignore reality. And by the way this is a type of stuff that can pass to children and those who think that way. These are not proofs rooted in reality or Chazal.
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: muman613 on May 16, 2012, 04:07:33 pm
I feel the protection of the mezuzah and other ritual items I am involved with {Tefillin & TzitTzits}. I have no reason to disbelieve the Talmud concerning this protection. Im sorry if your house was broken into despite the mezuzah, in my own experience my house has been protected since I affixed the mezuzah. Before I did so I was robbed once, but it has been over 10 years since, and I believe it is due to my observance of the miztzvot.

Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Tag-MehirTzedek on May 16, 2012, 04:16:08 pm
Muman I would like you to address this point especially with the part of Rav Kahane vs. the "mystics" and those who for example blame terrorism on immodesty. Who would we agree with? People like Rav Kahane who say and dealt with the real world or those who don't want to deal with it and divert the blame and the solution unot things completly having nothing to do with the situation. And our point is its precisly these attitudes and culture that has (partly) produced the incompetence of the Jewish world in not being able to deal with our problems (for example Arab terrorism). - An additional thing I can add is those who preach "reincarnation" in trying to explain why bad sh^t happens. That little boy that died he was really a reincarnated soul that had to die (this is a type of answer given, and in fact this is what a speaker told a mother who had a child die once)
 http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,61383.msg545389.html#msg545389
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Tag-MehirTzedek on May 16, 2012, 04:35:10 pm
Connected to this topic

 4. This outrageous phenomenon is not as surprising as it may at first seem. Shabtai Ssvi’s followers were known as “Zoharisten”, an allusion to the fact that they, like their leader and demigod, were heavily influenced by the Zohar. Lubavitch Hasidism is rooted in a literalistic reading of the Zohar and Lurianic Qabala, which when uncritically combined with the radical and pernicious notions spawned by the speculative school of Hasidic thought founded by the Magid of Mezritch, could only have led to the present heretical state of affairs.
 
5. This, I believe, is why the Gr’a z’l (the Vilna Gaon) refused to meet with the original Lubavitcher rebbe even when the latter came to Vilna to convince him to rescind the herem (religious ban) the Gr’a had signed against Lubavitch and similar movements. In his great and profound wisdom the Gr’a saw that these Jews had crossed the point of no return. The Gr’a was able to be “HaRo’e eth haNoladh (One who sees that which is yet to come)” (see Avoth 2:12 or 2:9).

http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-ask-the-rav/31-general/424-the-false-mashiah-of-lubavitch-habad
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: muman613 on May 16, 2012, 04:38:39 pm
Muman I would like you to address this point especially with the part of Rav Kahane vs. the "mystics" and those who for example blame terrorism on immodesty. Who would we agree with? People like Rav Kahane who say and dealt with the real world or those who don't want to deal with it and divert the blame and the solution unot things completly having nothing to do with the situation. And our point is its precisly these attitudes and culture that has (partly) produced the incompetence of the Jewish world in not being able to deal with our problems (for example Arab terrorism). - An additional thing I can add is those who preach "reincarnation" in trying to explain why bad sh^t happens. That little boy that died he was really a reincarnated soul that had to die (this is a type of answer given, and in fact this is what a speaker told a mother who had a child die once)
 http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,61383.msg545389.html#msg545389

It is my understanding that we have to do our part in this world and not rely on miracles. The problem with the terrorists is due to our not protecting our interests and our heritage in the way we should do so. But I also am of the belief that bad things happen as a result of things which we do which are not according to the will of Hashem. This is why Chazal look for alternative answers as to why such things happen. This is expressed in the story of Purim when the evil decree was blamed on the fact that the Jewish people were willing to party with the evil king and Haman, using the Holy vessels of the Temple. There is also the wisdom that the Second Temple was destroyed because of 'Baseless Hatred' {Talmud Yoma 9b}.

Divine Providence is beyond our comprehension. Why bad things happen to good people is one of those things which we mortals will apparently never be able to grasp. In my own life it is a nagging question why my brother was among the 3000 killed in the 9/11 attacks. I would have never dreamed this would happen, and especially to my own family.

My brother was the 'good son' in our family while I was shaping up to be the 'bad son'. My brother took care of my parents financially and visited my mother regularly. Apparently according to the Torah he should have been rewarded with a long life {one of the promises for keeping the command to give Kavod to parents}. But upon closer inspection I could find things about his honoring which fell short of complete honor {for instance his respect for our father was not what it should have been}. My brother probrobly never affixed a mezuzah nor did he ever wear tzittzits or tefillin. Any one of these could be reasons why he was taken from us in this world.

I know that my personal experience is that divine providence is protecting me. Since my Teshuva I have felt this and have witnessed miracles which have saved my life...

Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: muman613 on May 16, 2012, 04:39:30 pm
Connected to this topic

 4. This outrageous phenomenon is not as surprising as it may at first seem. Shabtai Ssvi’s followers were known as “Zoharisten”, an allusion to the fact that they, like their leader and demigod, were heavily influenced by the Zohar. Lubavitch Hasidism is rooted in a literalistic reading of the Zohar and Lurianic Qabala, which when uncritically combined with the radical and pernicious notions spawned by the speculative school of Hasidic thought founded by the Magid of Mezritch, could only have led to the present heretical state of affairs.
 
5. This, I believe, is why the Gr’a z’l (the Vilna Gaon) refused to meet with the original Lubavitcher rebbe even when the latter came to Vilna to convince him to rescind the herem (religious ban) the Gr’a had signed against Lubavitch and similar movements. In his great and profound wisdom the Gr’a saw that these Jews had crossed the point of no return. The Gr’a was able to be “HaRo’e eth haNoladh (One who sees that which is yet to come)” (see Avoth 2:12 or 2:9).

http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-ask-the-rav/31-general/424-the-false-mashiah-of-lubavitch-habad

More slander against Chabad and Chassidim in general. I knew there were issues with this guy.... You can have him but I place no trust in anything this guy says.... It is obvious he is one who lacks a Jewish soul and engages in Slander regularly.
 
And it has been discussed many times that Chabad does not believe that Rebbe was Moshiach. This is pure slander on the part of a small man...
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: muman613 on May 16, 2012, 04:45:08 pm
The traits of a Jewish soul:

http://ohr.edu/3194

Yevamot 79a
"There are three characteristics which distinguish the Jewish People — they are merciful, they are bashful and they are performers of acts of kindness."

This is how King David described his people to the Givonites who demanded the execution of seven sons of King Saul as revenge for their suffering at his hand.

"Only one who has these three characteristics," he concluded, "is fit to attach himself to our people."

Since the unreasonable demand of the Givonites demonstrated that they lacked these characteristics, David ruled that they would have the special status of netinim and would be limited in their marriage eligibility within the Jewish People.

Although the impression gained here is that all these characteristics are in the “genes” of the Jews, it is pointed out by Maharsha that this is not the case. It is true that G-d testified that the Patriarch Avraham would pass on to his posterity a legacy of lovingkindness (Bereishet 18:19) but the other attributes were unique gifts of G-d to His chosen people. "He will endow you with a capacity for being merciful" (Devarim 13.18) was a special gift from G-d, as was the bashfulness that came along with the gift of Torah (Shmot 20:17).
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Tag-MehirTzedek on May 16, 2012, 04:52:22 pm
More slander against Chabad and Chassidim in general. I knew there were issues with this guy.... You can have him but I place no trust in anything this guy says.... It is obvious he is one who lacks a Jewish soul and engages in Slander regularly.
 
And it has been discussed many times that Chabad does not believe that Rebbe was Moshiach. This is pure slander on the part of a small man...

 Why? Why can't you answer things and just call things that you disagree with as slander and lashon hara?
 What is untrue of the facts? For example the Vilna Gaon put them into Herem? Did that not happen?

 (I just read the rest - what you modified) and your the one engaging against slandering Rav Bar-Hayim Shlitta. Your doing the things your accusing him of doing.
 
 Your going to tell me that their aren't chabadniks who don't believe in this? Have you heard about 770 and what goes on there? Do you want me to open a new topic or just post here?
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Tag-MehirTzedek on May 16, 2012, 04:57:53 pm
Something that was posted
 "I just got home from a Chabad wedding in Bnei Brak. Yuck!
It seems that the "meshichistiyut" has gotten REALLY out of hand. The chuppah began with the reading of a letter "from the Rebbe", AS IF it were addressed to the couple! Then ther was a video (really, a photo slide show w/sound track) of the late Rebbe's wedding, followed by a speech he made at someone else's wedding before he died. All this is strange, but it's just make-believe; if they want to pretend some advice given by one person to another is also meant for them, so what? But the next thing was over the top!

The chasson shouted "Yechi adoneinu v'moreinu...," etc. 3 times, and each time the crowd shouted "Amen!" Several of my friends and myself covered our ears and turned our backs from such a feeling of avodah zarah....

The singing and dancing was disturbing, too. Seems they've put their dead Rebbe into many (if not all) of the songs, so instead of "David, Melech Yisrael, Chai, Chai...." for example, it was "Adoneinu v'Morenu, Melech Yisrael, Chai, Chai...." Other songs were similarly mutilated. And the flag dancing with those yellow melech hamoshiach flags looked more like something out of Southeast Asia than anything I'd seen before at a Jewish wedding."

 also on Israel613.com
 Go to the section on Chabad Lubavitch. You will see posters, video's and letters of this mess.

Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Tag-MehirTzedek on May 16, 2012, 05:01:52 pm
This is kinda funny (yett sad)
 THE TRIAL OF THE THIRD MILLENIUM:

JE--S OF NAZARETH vs. THE REBBE

    JUDICIAL COURT  OF GEHINOMM
PATENTS SECTION

CASE OF THE DEAD MESSIAH

JE--- [ACCUSER]

VS

REBBE [DEFENDANT]
 
THE ACCUSER [JE--S] CLAIMS THAT DEFENDANT [THE REBBE] HAS BEEN STEALING HIS IDEAS  IN THE FOLLOWING MANNER:

-          THE REBBE AND HIS FOLLOWERS CLAIM THAT THE REBBE IS THE MESSIAH EVEN THOUGH HE PASSED AWAY YEARS AGO. IT HAS BEEN KNOWN TO EVERYONE THAT FOR THE PAST 2000 YEARS THE EXCLUSIVITY OF THE DEAD MESSIAH CONCEPT BELONGS TO JE--S AND HIS FOLLOWERS.

-          MOREOVER ACCUSER CLAIMS THAT THE FOLLOWERS OF THE REBBE ASSIGN HIM DIVINE STATUS SAYING THAT HE IS THE ESSENCE OF G-D AND IT IS KNOWN TO ALL THAT THIS CONCEPT OF DIVINITY BELONGS TO JE--S AND HIS FOLLOWERS, JE--S BEING THE SON OF G-D.

-         ACCUSER CLAIMS THAT THE REBBE HAS STOLEN FROM HIM THE PRACTICE OF PLACING HIS PICTURE EVERYWHERE BOTH WITHIN AND OUTSIDE THE CHURCHES.

-        THE ACCUSER CLAIMS THAT WITH THESE THEFTS THE FOLLOWERS OF THE REBBE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO GROW THEIR CHABAD HOUSES SO RAPIDLY [THERE ARE CURRENTLY 4.000] THAT WITHIN 50 YEARS THERE WILL BE MORE CHABAD HOUSES THAN CHRISTIAN CHURCHES IN THE WORLD.

-          ACCUSER CLAIMS THAT THE FOLLOWERS OF THE REBBE EXPECT HIS SECOND COMING IN ORDER TO COMPLETE HIS MISSION AS MESSIAH. THIS IDEA HAS ALSO BEEN STOLEN FROM JE--S AND HIS FOLLOWERS.

 WHAT THE ACCUSER REQUESTS:

-     THE ACCUSER ALSO REQUESTS AN IMMEDIATE INJUNCTION TO STOP ALL THE FOLLOWERS OF THE REBBE FROM CLINGING ANY DIVINITY TO THE REBBE.

-      ACCUSER REQUESTS THAT FOLLOWERS OF THE REBBE STOP SINGING YECHI ADONEINU MELECH HA MOSHIACH IMMEDIATELY.
 
 Israel613.com
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Tag-MehirTzedek on May 16, 2012, 05:07:10 pm
Muman  (and those interested) look at this live video from Chabad themselves.
 Notice for example the banner on the wall. (when the camera gets to there) Take a look at the "new Beit Hamikdash" located in Brooklyn NY.
http://770live.com/En770/770live.asp?lang=1
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: muman613 on May 16, 2012, 05:08:12 pm
Something that was posted
 "I just got home from a Chabad wedding in Bnei Brak. Yuck!
It seems that the "meshichistiyut" has gotten REALLY out of hand. The chuppah began with the reading of a letter "from the Rebbe", AS IF it were addressed to the couple! Then ther was a video (really, a photo slide show w/sound track) of the late Rebbe's wedding, followed by a speech he made at someone else's wedding before he died. All this is strange, but it's just make-believe; if they want to pretend some advice given by one person to another is also meant for them, so what? But the next thing was over the top!

The chasson shouted "Yechi adoneinu v'moreinu...," etc. 3 times, and each time the crowd shouted "Amen!" Several of my friends and myself covered our ears and turned our backs from such a feeling of avodah zarah....

The singing and dancing was disturbing, too. Seems they've put their dead Rebbe into many (if not all) of the songs, so instead of "David, Melech Yisrael, Chai, Chai...." for example, it was "Adoneinu v'Morenu, Melech Yisrael, Chai, Chai...." Other songs were similarly mutilated. And the flag dancing with those yellow melech hamoshiach flags looked more like something out of Southeast Asia than anything I'd seen before at a Jewish wedding."

 also on Israel613.com
 Go to the section on Chabad Lubavitch. You will see posters, video's and letters of this mess.

I have said I am aware that there are those who are doing this. But this is not condoned by the Main Chabad organization. I know personally several Chabad Rabbis and have discussed this very issue with them.

I am satisfied that the Organization does not push this belief as can be seen by any Chabad website. I have never seen any suggestion that Rebbe was Moshiach on Chabad.org nor any local Chabad affiliate {here in the California area}.

Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Tag-MehirTzedek on May 16, 2012, 05:13:25 pm
I have said I am aware that there are those who are doing this. But this is not condoned by the Main Chabad organization. I know personally several Chabad Rabbis and have discussed this very issue with them.

I am satisfied that the Organization does not push this belief as can be seen by any Chabad website. I have never seen any suggestion that Rebbe was Moshiach on Chabad.org nor any local Chabad affiliate {here in the California area}.



 You said this earlier " And it has been discussed many times that Chabad does not believe that Rebbe was Moshiach. This is pure slander on the part of a small man... "

 Now, how is this "pure slander".( What you said actually was and is, but I don't worry because I believe most if not all of the people reading this here would agree with me and not you.)
 I posted from the main headquarters of Chabad, something you can see now in live real time.
 You don't know (or don't want to know) what goes on there.
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: muman613 on May 16, 2012, 05:16:49 pm
Here is the response from a discussion on this topic on Lazer Brodys site:



http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2011/06/the-lubavitcher-rebbe-on-faith.html

B"H

Avigail,

I was deeply saddened to read your posts against Chabad on Rabbi Brody's website. Unfortunately, the internet makes it possible for any person to go onto a beautiful blog such as Rabbi Brody's, and 'very publicly' smear an entire group of tens of thousands of Jews in one quick shot. Perhaps hundreds of thousands of Jews got smeared in one shot by your posts, if you consider all the Jews somehow affiliated around the world with a Chabad Shul. There are enough hate groups and anti-Semites on the web. And in recent times, mainstream media outlets in many countries are attacking Jews and Israel all over the internet like never before. It's not helpful for Jews to attack other Jews.

Please watch the video posted by Rabbi Brody again, and focus on the wonderful, inspirational message about emuna & bitachon (and thanking Hashem for both good and the seemingly bad), which the Lubavitcher Rebbe so eloquently spoke about in the video. Please don't turn Lazer Beams, which is a beacon of Light for all Jews, into your personal forum against tens of thousands of Jews across the world who follow the teachings of the Lubavitcher Rebbe. You obviously have an axe to grind against Chabad, but please keep this negativity to yourself. Rabbi Brody often teaches about how important it is for Jews to love all other Jews, even the ones we disagree with, and/or the ones whom are different on the surface. For example, Ashkenazi & Sephardic, or religious and not religious. In reality, we are all one. So let's have Ahavat Yisrael!

On Rabbi Brody's Emuna CD "Pipes of Abundance" he talks about how we have to be careful never to speak Lashon Hara against any other group of Jews, or any rabbi. The Lubavitcher Rebbe was one of the main people (whom you can count on one hand) responsible for reviving Judaism around the world from the ashes of Auschwitz. And he truly loved all Jews. And he taught his shliuchim to also love and accept all Jews.

Your first post against Chabad was extremely harsh, calling ugly names like "cult movement" and "breaching Halacha" and all sorts of other ugly stuff. Chabad is actually very strict about following all of the Halacha, by the way. Someone took the time to politely respond to your posts (you thought it was Rabbi Brody himself but it wasn't), and the intelligent response didn't settle it for you. It only launched you into some sort of "debate" with Rabbi Brody, and you wrote a much more vicious attack on Chabad, and G-d forbid it seems you may have been attacking the Lubavitcher Rebbe himself. The Lubavitcher Rebbe was one of the Torah giants of modern times. Almost all Jewish scholars agree on this. And it doesn't take a Torah scholar to know that he was one of the leaders of an entire generation, for our people. He loved ALL Jews and in one of his famous comments, he compared each Jew in the world to a diamond. You obviously have an axe to grind with Chabad, and everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, but please consider how much it damages Klal Yisrael when Jews attack other Jews, in any form.

When I watched that video the first time, what struck me most was how similar the Rebbe's message was back then to Rabbi Brody's own message today. B"H I feel the Lubavitcher Rebbe would be VERY proud to have Rabbi Brody and Rav Arush spreading the message of Emuna to the current generation.

Furthermore, everyone should know:

The first Rebbe of Chabad, the Alter Rebbe (the Baal HaTanya) defended Rabi Nachman and supported him in the machlokes against Rabi Nachman and said: "Rabi Nachman places himself in nisyonos, he is a great man, a mighty warrior." (Beis Rebbe)

Also:

* When R’ Nachman returned from Eretz Yisroel he went directly to the Baal HaTanya in White Russia (quite a distance out of his way) arriving before Shabbos Chazon (9 Av 5559 -1779) in Liozna. When the Chassidim found out that R’ Nachman had come to town they received him with great honor and came out to greet him dressed in their Shabbos clothing. The Alter Rebbe was overjoyed to welcome R’ Nachman, and they showed each other great closeness and love. They spoke for many hours, and after R’ Nachman declined to speak publicly, the Alter Rebbe delivered a maamar for six hours without stop.


* Once, the 6th Lubavitcher Rebbe (R’ Yosef Yitzchok), visited Teplik. Upon his arrival, all the Yidden came to greet him and brought kvitlach - and among them was a Breslover Chossid named R’ Elimelech Tepliker. The Rebbe Rayatz told him: “Everyone has seforim in their home, but when traveling, one only brings along the seforim that he uses regularly.” While saying these words, the Rebbe showed him that he had brought along his Likkutei Moharan.

* Also, the Previous Lubavitcher Rebbe (Rebbe Rayatz) had a sefer Likutei Halachos on his desk at the time of his passing.

Avigail, even the other Torah giants of our time such as the Baba Sali had the greatest respect and admiration for the Lubavitcher Rebbe. And these two great tzadikim used to communicate with each other in ways that you and I cannot even understand.

Let's not focus on whether the Rebbe is the mashiach or not, which you seem preoccupied with. As the person who responded to you on Rabbi Brody's site explained to you, most Chabad rabbis today do not focus on this. They are about making positive ACTIONS happen in the world today, and spreading Torah & Mitzvot to all Jews.

Perhaps the greatest legacy to the Rebbe is all the great work done around the world by his shliuchim. Applaud them for this. Don't knock down other Jews. If you visit Thailand or India or Tazmania or any number of far out places in the world, try getting a Kosher meal without going to a Chabad House, Avigail. :) The numerous families known as Chabad do many wonderful things in Chutz La'aretz and in Eretz Yisroel. They think of themselves as "Jews" first and foremost, and they are there to serve all Jews.

The oldest charity organization in Israel is Colel Chabad, which has been caring for Israel's needy since 1788. They have numerous programs around the world, helping Jewish prisoners, helping Jewish soldiers in the US Armed Forces, and on and on. http://www.Chabad.org is one of the largest places on the whole internet helping Jews to connect to Hashem in every imaginable way. See for yourself. There is no mention there of the Rebbe being the mashiach.. on any part of that huge site.

From Israeli backpackers in their twenties hiking through Thailand and Colombia when they come out of the army, to Satmar Chasidim traveling through China on business, Chabad helps Jews all over the world in any way they can! The murderers who killed the people at the Chabad House in Mumbai didn't go looking for "Chabad" in there.. they went hunting for Jewish blood. And is is often the case, a wide variety of Jews just happened to be visiting inside the Chabad House at the time, and therefore were murdered together as Jews, may their souls all have an aliyah with Hashem.

Breslev and Chabad are both doing a phenomenal job of reaching out to ALL Jews in the world today. They are amongst the most successful at this, which is unfortunately why they both get attacked so much. In spite of all the attacks, both Breslev and Chabad keep growing and growing in almost miraculous ways! B"H

Let's love each other as Jews, and drop all the labels. In the end, we are all simply Jews. B"H And in the zechut of Rabbi Brody, let's keep 'Lazer Beams' happy and positive for all Jews. :)

Kol tuv.

Respectfully,
david
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Tag-MehirTzedek on May 16, 2012, 08:15:34 pm
Muman back to the question  of Mezuzot here is a great article I just read.
 Mezuza

 

Moshe Ben-Chaim   


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

There are many Jews who believe that the mezuza has some “power” of protection. Ask these people if you can light a match to a mezuza and it should not burn, and they will respond, “of course it burns.” Our obvious response, “If a mezuza cannot protect itself, how can it protect anything outside itself?”

 

Foolish people who look to the mezuza for physical protection have already been admonished by Maimonides, (Hilchos Mezuza, 5:4). There, he calls such people fools for seeking protection. He states that they take a command, which is in fact for the lofty purpose of guiding us towards profound ideas on the Unity of God, His love and His service, and they make it into an amulet of benefit. Maimonides states they have no share in the next world.

 

These unfortunate individuals make the same error as those who wear red bendels. Just as the Tosefta in Talmud Sabbath (Chap. 7) says red strings on fingers are prohibited, so too those who mock God’s command of mezuza. I would like to quote the Shulchan Aruch, in the Gilyon M’harsha, Yoreh Daah, 289, page 113 on the bottom, “if one affixes the mezuza for the reason of fulfilling the command, one may consider that as reward for doing so he will be watched by G-d. But, if one affixes the mezuza solely for protective reasons, it in fact has no guidance, and the mezuza will be as knives in his eyes”. These are very strong words from this very well known Rabbi. But what is his lesson? He is teaching us that God is the only source of protection, and that physical objects have no power. Rather, if one feels they do, these objects, even a mezuza, will be the opposite, “knives in his eyes” - something destructive. We say every day, “He (God) alone is the master of wonders”. Do we not listen to ourselves as we pray?

 

It is of the utmost importance that above all, we have the correct notion of God. He alone is the only source of power in the universe. Magic, enchanters, psychics, voodoo, etc., are all hoaxes. Even the Egyptian astrologers of old were correctly explained as having used slight of hand. (Saadia Gaon in “Emunos v’Daos”) There is no such thing as witchcraft. God’s distinction is exclusive. To assume other powers in the universe means to assume a diminution in God.

 

I would add one important observation: The notion that mezuzas have powers is actually the opposite of its real purpose. Mezuza, tefillin and tzitzis serve to take man’s investment of security in physical objects, and redirect it towards God. Man invests strength in his limbs, ego in his clothing, and security in his home. God commands us to realize our error, and redirect our security towards Him alone, as this is the truth, and our thoughts are false. We are to remind ourselves of God as we enter our homes and see the mezuza. We reflect on our frail bodies as we don tefillin. And we loosen the grip of the ego as we incorporate tzitzis into our wardrobe. Maimonides groups mezuza, tefillin and tzitzis under one heading, and I believe it is for this reason. Similarly, leprosy strikes one’s home, then his clothing, and finally one’s body - the same three objects. The purpose? To teach a sinful individual that he is a victim of evil speech. But God teaches man in a merciful fashion: first, through objects of his identification before attacking his body. Identification is closely related to security.

 

If we understand the mitzvos by in depth study as God desires, we will protect ourselves from all foolish notions, which unfortunately circulate with appeal among our brethren. As long as one abandons Torah study and simply “follows the leader”, Jews will remain victims of nonsensical notions and forfeit their “World to Come.” Only he or she who uses their mind will learn what is real, and will abandon that which is false, and which the Rabbis collectively admonished us to repel.

http://www.mesora.org/discussions/
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: muman613 on May 16, 2012, 08:20:04 pm
Tag,

It is obvious from all the sources which I posted that the protection provided by a Mezuzah comes from Hashem. Nobody ever suggested that the Mezuzah is some magical item. But the position still stands that one who affixes a mezuzah, to fulfill the commandment as Hashem commanded, will be offered some protection from Shemayim.

Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on May 17, 2012, 08:01:56 am
The same thing could be said about Satmar rabbis which I also don't have much use for.  If you're doing something that's leading people astray, that's nothing to be respected for.

So does it make sense to make up conspiracy theories like that the Satmar rebbi was working for the Pope or he secretly murdered the rebbe of such and such etc  chas veshalom    Oh yeah, and then got murdered himself because the vatican conspiracies always defame a person and then say they "lost their usefulness" and that's why they didn't live long.   
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on May 17, 2012, 08:03:04 am
The same thing could be said about Satmar rabbis which I also don't have much use for.  If you're doing something that's leading people astray, that's nothing to be respected for.


So does it make sense to make up conspiracy theories like that the Satmar rebbi was working for the Pope or he secretly murdered the rebbe of such and such etc  chas veshalom    Oh yeah, and then got murdered himself because the vatican conspiracies always defame a person and then say they "lost their usefulness" and that's why they didn't live long.   

Having no use for someone's views is perfectly fine.   Making up insane tales that defame the person and wrongfully accuse them is NOT FINE.
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on May 17, 2012, 08:04:14 am
You must beware of sharing the error of those who write amulets (kameot). Whatever you hear from them, or read in their works, especially in reference to the names which they form by combination, is utterly senseless; they call these combinations shemot (names) and believe that their pronunciation demands sanctification and purification, and that by using them they are enabled to work miracles. Rational persons ought not to listen to such men, nor in any way believe their assertions.

--Rambam, Guide for the Perplexed, Part 1, chapter 61.

Source: http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/gfp/gfp071.htm

I don't disagree with one word of this.

And at the same time, I don't slander and make up stories about people who think differently about amulets.
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on May 17, 2012, 08:09:29 am

But even Rambam allows (Hilchot Shabbat 19:14) for people to go out on Shabbat with an Amulet   that was made by an expert with a proven record of healing 3 people or made by an expert, who is known to have cured 3 people with his amulet.


That just shows he was ahead of his time by having an empirical mindset.   

Placebo effect is a real thing.   If something has PROVEN track record of healing, fine, it's a medical device.    (Even if that healing was done thru placebo effect).    The whole point of being against amulets was that it was superstition and a phony type of miracle-working.    But the rational approach to Judaism would assert that if something is proven to work in a certain way, it can be used for that thing.   Keep in mind medicine was not very advanced in those days.
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Tag-MehirTzedek on May 17, 2012, 09:18:38 am
http://www.rationalistjudaism.com/2010/10/you-dont-mess-with-zohar.html

You Don't Mess With The Zohar
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: muman613 on May 17, 2012, 05:49:24 pm
I didn't make up anything and I didn't slander anyone.

What the original video you posted was is Slander...
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Harzel on May 17, 2012, 06:17:20 pm
It's highly unethical to raise such blemish on a person, let alone a dead person who cannot defend himself.
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Harzel on May 17, 2012, 06:44:29 pm
I am not the censor of this forum. I just suggest you check yourself.

Also Dan, this might sound critical but I honestly want to ask you, do you believe in the principle of not speaking leshon hara or do you think this is also a custom Judaism should weed out ?
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Ephraim Ben Noach on May 17, 2012, 06:51:24 pm
I can understand civil debate, but attacking one another does no good. All it does is divide us, and make us weak as a movement!
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Tag-MehirTzedek on May 17, 2012, 08:01:41 pm
I am not the censor of this forum. I just suggest you check yourself.

Also Dan, this might sound critical but I honestly want to ask you, do you believe in the principle of not speaking leshon hara or do you think this is also a custom Judaism should weed out ?

 Actually this isn't Lashon Hara, its just wierd conspiracy stuff that is not true. We need to know what Lashon Hara actually is and not throw it around every time we have a disagreement with someone. Speaking out against Kefira is not Lashon Hara.
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: muman613 on May 17, 2012, 08:34:37 pm
Actually this isn't Lashon Hara, its just wierd conspiracy stuff that is not true. We need to know what Lashon Hara actually is and not throw it around every time we have a disagreement with someone. Speaking out against Kefira is not Lashon Hara.

I have posted several times on the Forum the Laws of Lashon Hara as enumerated at Torah.org...

I may just repost them so we can see what Lashon Hara is. Basically it is speaking something 'which is true' about a fellow Jew which causes embarrassment or degradation to that Jew. Motzei Shem Ra is speaking falsehoods about a fellow Jew.

So basically these claims are Motzei Shem Ra and not even Lashon Hara...

Here is the INTRO to this topic at Torah.org:

Quote
http://torah.org/learning/halashon/chapter1.html

1. Definition of Lashon Hara: Negative Comments, Whether True or False

It is forbidden to speak disparagingly of one's "chaveir" (lit. friend--we will discuss who this technically includes later). Even if the information is entirely truthful, it is called Lashon Hara. If the information also contains any fabrication, it is also called motzi shem ra (lit. putting out a bad name). The speaker of Lashon Hara violates the prohibition of "Lo telech rachil b'ameicha (Lev. 19:16)."


2. Biblical Source for the Prohibition Against Lashon Hara

Leviticus 19:16 explicitly prohibits Lashon Hara and Rechilut (talebearing that incites hatred and resentment), yet there are many more commandments that bear on the speaking of Lashon Hara, as discussed in the introduction.


3. Habitual Speakers of Lashon Hara

The above (the seriousness of speaking Lashon Hara) relates to someone who incidentally includes something inappropriate in his speech. But those who make it a habit to talk about others in a derogatory manner ("Did you hear.....", "Do you know she.....", etc.) are labeled ba'alei lashon hara (lit. masters of Lashon Hara, in that such speech is an integral part of themselves), and their transgression is far more severe. They regularly create a chilul Hashem (desecration of the name of G-d; cf. Lev. 22:32) because of their rebellious manner. Though they may view their activities as social tools, such behavior cuts them off from many good things in the world around them.


4. Profound Consequences of Speaking Lashon Hara

Ba'alei Lashon Hara are also cut off from something else: olam habah (the World to Come). The Sages say (Bab. Erchin 15b) that for three transgressions one forfeits his portion in olam habah: murder, adultery, and idol worship, and that lashon hara is equivalent to all three. The Chafetz Chaim adds that when someone accustoms himself to speaking Lashon Hara, he rationalizes it to the extent that he begins to view Lashon Hara as entirely permissible.

The comparison of Lashon Hara to well-known and agreed-upon sins such as murder is surprising. But at the same time, we can imagine why: just as the "Ten Commandments" sins damage and destroy vital physical aspects of the world, Lashon Hara afflicts the emotional and social realms.


5. Being "Coerced" into Speaking Lashon Hara

There is no difference when speaking lashon hara whether one tells a juicy story of his own will or because someone encourages (or pressures) him to do so. Even if the speaker's Rebbe (teacher) or parent--whom the person must honor and fear, and not contradict--requests that he tell about an incident, if the relating of the information would result in Lashon Hara or even Avak Lashon Hara (speech that provokes Lashon Hara; more about that later), he cannot say it.

If you think about it, Lashon Hara isn't any different from any other commandment. If someone encouraged you, or even nagged you, to eat a cheeseburger, you would still be fully responsible for your actions. Certainly social pressure for gossip seems more effective than it is for food, drink and many other areas, but that may be because we are not used to saying "no" to evil speech.


6. Speaking Lashon Hara to Avoid Financial Loss

Even when subject to great financial loss, one is not permitted to speak Lashon Hara. This may mean that he will be viewed as a fool, and denied financial opportunity by the "intelligent" people with whom he associates. As in all Mitzvot Lo Taaseh (Torah prohibitions), we are commanded to forgo all of our income.

(The source for this is in Shema: b'kol l'vavcha, b'kol nafsh'cha, ub'kol m'odecha: "You shall love the L-rd your G-d with all of your heart, all of your soul, and all of your possessions.")

It is generally helpful to try and develop a (personal) rational approach to the laws of Lashon Hara. When someone is confronted with a situation in which he is expected to speak derogatorily about someone, if he can respond with a simple personal philosophy (or sometimes just enough self-confidence to convey adherence to a personal philosophy), he will leave most of those situations with others' respect intact. And in those situations which are not in the "most" category, the best thing to do is remember the benefits that accrue through hardship in observing this mitzvah.


7. Speaking Lashon Hara to Avoid Personal Dishonor

If someone stands to lose personal honor by not speaking Lashon Hara, he must also sustain the loss and remain silent. For example, if one is sitting in a group speaking Lashon Hara, and he has no way to separate from them at the moment, he cannot participate in their lively discussion. This applies even if he will look like a simpleton or social clod. He should try to hold himself back and remember the many sayings of the Sages regarding his situation: "Better to be considered a fool in the eyes of man throughout one's lifetime than as a wicked person in the eyes of G-d for one moment (Eduyot 5:6)," "the reward is according to the effort (Pirkei Avot/Ethics of the Fathers 5:25)," "one hundred times more in hardship than without it (i.e. the reward is one hundred fold; Avot d'Rabbi Natan)," and the Vilna Gaon who writes that "for every second that one remains silent he will merit reward beyond the comprehension of any being, even celestial."


8. Various Methods of Conveying Lashon Hara

Whether spoken, written, or hinted with gestures or any other way (if you looked at the Rashi in Lev. 19:16 you saw that winking was described as a characteristic behavior of holchei rachil - those who go about slandering), any communication of Lashon Hara is prohibited. This also applies if you weren't the writer of a piece disparaging someone. [Rabbi Pliskin elaborates on a footnote in the Hebrew about the communication of Lashon Hara: showing a letter or other writing (e.g. a newspaper) to belittle its writer would also be forbidden. I would anticipate that this would also apply to footage in a film or other media.]


9. Disparaging Yourself Along with Others

Even if you're disparaging yourself alongside the subject, it is prohibited. It doesn't matter if you look even worse than the subject, and it doesn't matter if you mention yourself first. Rabbi Pliskin gives some nice examples:

Ben and I both shoplifted when we were younger.
Nobody in our group studies Torah properly.
It is also forbidden to speak Lashon Hara about yourself.
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: muman613 on May 17, 2012, 08:37:50 pm
http://torah.org/learning/halashon/review3.html

Quote

Hilchot Lashon Hara Review: Part 3

I. Circumstances Under Which Speaking Lashon Hara is Permitted

In "Chafetz Chaim: A Lesson a Day" p. 132, Rabbi Yitzchak Berkowitz lists the major categories of constructive purposes for which Lashon Hara may be spoken:
To influence the subject to improve by discussing his faults with someone who can help him.
To prevent someone from being harmed by the subject, or help someone who was already harmed by the subject.
To help end a dispute between individuals which could escalate to the community level.
To help others learn from the subject's mistakes.


II. The Seven Conditions

Before speaking Lashon Hara for a constructive purpose, the following seven conditions must be met:
The information spoken must be completely true and witnessed or verified by the speaker. If it is impossible to verify the information yet necessary that it be passed on, the speaker must preface his remarks with a warning that the information is only hearsay and not definitely true.
The issue must be a problem (e.g. transgression, relevant character flaw or bad behavior) from an objective viewpoint, not merely a preference or sensitivity. (For example, if a store openly encourages shoppers to sample the new grape shipment, and someone takes a few grapes rather than exactly one, it would be incorrect to consider him "greedy" or "a thief.")
The speaker must first rebuke the subject directly, in a kind and gentle way which is likely to have an influence. (If the subject will not listen to any rebuke, or if trying to rebuke him can make the Lashon Hara ineffective, refer to ch. 10 in Hilchot Lashon Hara and ch. 9 in Hilchot Rechilut for the Chafetz Chaim's treatment of the subject.)
The information cannot be exaggerated or embellished, even if it's the only way to get the listener to heed the information.
The intention of the speaker must be purely to help in the situation, not to degrade the subject or cause him shame.
If the constructive purpose intended by the speaker can be achieved in a way other than speaking Lashon Hara, the speaker should resort to that other method.
Any damage that is caused to the subject as a result of the Lashon Hara should not exceed that which would be decreed by a Beit Din (Jewish court) if the case were reviewed there. This is difficult to evaluate, so that situations that impact the livelihood or other areas of the subject should be referred to a Beit Din.
When someone either speaks or requests Lashon Hara for constructive purposes, they should state the constructive purpose. Otherwise, the other party in the conversation will think they are speaking Lashon Hara without any halachic justification.
Also, it would be foolish to include the subject's enemies in a constructive discussion. Not only would they be unlikely to have truly constructive intentions in handling the information, but hey might also add false or exaggerated information to the con versation due to their strong feelings against the subject.

Finally, it is important to think about the listener of the Lashon Hara. It is forbidden for the listener to believe or accept the information as true; they can only suspect the information in order to take proper precautions or to bring the issue to a Beit Din for resolution. Also, it would be forbidden for the listener to carelessly circulate the Lashon Hara out of anger or disgust, since that would violate condition (5) above. When possible, the speaker should preface his remarks with instructions reflecting these concerns; if the listener would not heed such instructions, the speaker should consult his Rabbinic authority before relating the Lashon Hara.

III. Additional Guidelines for Speaking Lashon Hara

When someone either speaks or requests Lashon Hara for constructive purposes, they should state the constructive purpose. Otherwise, the other party in the conversation will think they are speaking Lashon Hara without any halachic justification.
Also, it would be foolish to include the subject's enemies in a constructive discussion. Not only would they be unlikely to have truly constructive intentions in handling the information, but hey might also add false or exaggerated information to the con versation due to their strong feelings against the subject.

Finally, it is important to think about the listener of the Lashon Hara. It is forbidden for the listener to believe or accept the information as true; they can only suspect the information in order to take proper precautions or to bring the issue to a Beit Din for resolution. Also, it would be forbidden for the listener to carelessly circulate the Lashon Hara out of anger or disgust, since that would violate condition 5, to have purely constructive intent. When possible, the speaker should preface his remarks with instructions reflecting these concerns; if the listener would not heed such instructions, the speaker should consult a Rabbi.
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on May 17, 2012, 08:44:50 pm
I didn't make up anything and I didn't slander anyone.

The woman whose video you promoted did.   I don't think it was clear whether you were divorcing yourself from her claims or not.    Are you willing to make that clear?
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on May 17, 2012, 08:45:57 pm
I didn't make that up, I just thought it was an interesting question, and wouldn't have been surprised if it was true.

To say you're "not surprised if it was true" is a way of slandering Rabbi Luria, because you are saying you deem that possible about him (based on what, I have no idea, but that's your suggestion).
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on May 17, 2012, 08:47:55 pm
Actually this isn't Lashon Hara, its just wierd conspiracy stuff that is not true. We need to know what Lashon Hara actually is and not throw it around every time we have a disagreement with someone. Speaking out against Kefira is not Lashon Hara.

As an example though:
Is saying, "I would not be surprised if Rabbi Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant who purposely sabotaged Judaism and secretly murdered Rabbi Moshe Cordovero"  considered Lashon Hara?    I would think that it is, but I'm really no expert on the laws lashon hara.  What say you?
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Tag-MehirTzedek on May 17, 2012, 09:02:56 pm
As an example though:
Is saying, "I would not be surprised if Rabbi Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant who purposely sabotaged Judaism and secretly murdered Rabbi Moshe Cordovero" 


 I remember the first part, but the rest seems new to me (don't remember reading it here or at all).
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Tag-MehirTzedek on May 17, 2012, 09:12:52 pm
I think we are getting carried away with this whole "Kabbalah" and Arizal etc. thing. In my opinion their are problems with both extremes and the way things are shown and seen and what is believed. Their are those who took these teachings the wrong way (and not that their isn't a Mahloket to begin with) on the other hand some "rationalists" are also taking things wrongly (imo).
 Perhaps some of these teachings are very great teachings. BUT they can be dangerous when understood and teken the wrong way. In the Ben Ish Chai it is brought down that the Ari (I dont remember the details) instructed his students to bury his teachings after his passing because it can be taken the wrong way. Even the Kabbalists like the Arizal etc. said that their are conditions for studying "Kabbalah". And if you look into them they are many and usually hard to fulfill even before starting. I think the point is to be firmly grounded in reality. The problem is when some (or many) just skipp everything and jump into what they call and believe is "Kabbalah" and the "secrets" and that is where problems including potentially idolatry and heresy comes in.And also being the problems with some groups etc. today. 
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: muman613 on May 17, 2012, 09:15:11 pm
I think we are getting carried away with this whole "Kabbalah" and Arizal etc. thing. In my opinion their are problems with both extremes and the way things are shown and seen and what is believed. Their are those who took these teachings the wrong way (and not that their isn't a Mahloket to begin with) on the other hand some "rationalists" are also taking things wrongly (imo).
 Perhaps some of these teachings are very great teachings. BUT they can be dangerous when understood and teken the wrong way. In the Ben Ish Chai it is brought down that the Ari (I dont remember the details) instructed his students to bury his teachings after his passing because it can be taken the wrong way. Even the Kabbalists like the Arizal etc. said that their are conditions for studying "Kabbalah". And if you look into them they are many and usually hard to fulfill even before starting. I think the point is to be firmly grounded in reality. The problem is when some (or many) just skipp everything and jump into what they call and believe is "Kabbalah" and the "secrets" and that is where problems including potentially idolatry and heresy comes in.And also being the problems with some groups etc. today.

This I agree with. I don't think Kabbalah is that important for the average Jewish person. It is completely unnecessary for the service of Hashem. But those minds who seek more than just the Tanakh and want to feel like they understand more of Hashems working within the world can learn secrets of Torah from the Kabbalah.

Again I stand against teaching what some schools call Kabbalah to the uneducated Jewish masses as the 'Kabbalah Center' does. What they teach is not Judaism...
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: JTFenthusiast2 on May 17, 2012, 11:15:28 pm
I don't go to them for spiritual guidance.  What's going on here is if I find one true video or interesting thing they have to say that is not currently accepted by the majority of Jews, you try to dig up something that they said that doesn't go along with JTF ideology, rendering anything they have to say worthless.  I don't agree with everything this woman says, or everything that Rabbi Asher Meza says.  Putting up one video of theirs is not meant to endorse them as spiritual guides.  But they are right about certain things, such as Lurianic Kabbalah.  Rabbis have written against Lurianic Kabbala.  I don't know if Luria was exactly a Vatican plant, but it is an interesting theory, and it's nice to see there are Orthodox Jews out there fighting against mysticism.

"Rabbi Asher Meza??????"  Please tell me you are joking.
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on May 18, 2012, 08:12:36 am


 I remember the first part, but the rest seems new to me (don't remember reading it here or at all).

That's what the video says.   So I'm asking, theoretically, if someone says "that wouldn't surprise me" about that, is it a form of lashon hara?   Or motzi shem ra?     Or something?
Title: Re: Isaac Luria was a Vatican plant?
Post by: Harzel on May 18, 2012, 11:21:41 am
That's what the video says.   So I'm asking, theoretically, if someone says "that wouldn't surprise me" about that, is it a form of lashon hara?   Or motzi shem ra?     Or something?
From the little check I have made indeed lashon hara in the halachic context is telling something that is true that  is bad or can damage that person. Motzi shem ra is someone who tells lies about another person.

So, the issue here is what if a person is spreading rumors or theories that are unfounded but he believes they are likely or possible. I don't know halacha enough but it makes sense to me to avoid spreading such stories and if one just can't hold it in then at least he should say very clearly that it is pure speculation lacking evidence.